Marvel Legends Gamerverse

[JakeEkiss]

she aint a real summers. hmph


I know a lot of x readers that loved the krakoa era and wanted it to continue, because the stuff they've done after in the breevoort era has been mid at best

What I read of it was at least very bold and felt really fresh. I wouldn't be surprised if it immediately started to be convoluted and poorly focused, but those Powers of X/House of X books definitely hurled a lot of cool ideas out all at once.

 

[Jolene00Negative]

yeah, i hear that. I'm not a big X fan, and i know at first people were annoyed by the editors continuing the krakoa stuff because it was selling well, even after hickman left and his plans were changed or something.

But the big complaints from what i hear were the return to the status quo post krakoa

 

[Chooch555]

I think both Karakoa and post-Krakoa suffer from the editorial desire to tell an overarching story and the writer's reality of having to come up with something for their specific book. I'd appreciate if books could stand on their own for a year or two.

 

[altcunningham]

From what I recall he had a plan and editorial and the other writers didn't want to end the phase, so he passed it off and they milked it.

 

[JakeEkiss]

From what I recall he had a plan and editorial and the other writers didn't want to end the phase, so he passed it off and they milked it.

This is what I recall vaguely hearing as well.

I think both Karakoa and post-Krakoa suffer from the editorial desire to tell an overarching story and the writer's reality of having to come up with something for their specific book. I'd appreciate if books could stand on their own for a year or two.

I was talking with a friend a while ago about how X-Men, if you're an older fan, really gives you a warped idea of how superhero team books work because it has some early stretches where consistent creative teams stayed on it for a lot longer than normal. Granted, even under Claremont there were editorial struggles, but at least there was some cohesiveness behind the voice. Now I can't imagine trying to be on one of these books as a writer. Knowing your whole plan could be hijacked or thrown out a window, or just rebooted (gotta get those legacy issues and new number 1's in) right in the middle with hardly any warning or time to land the plane.

 

[Jolene00Negative]

This is what I recall vaguely hearing as well.

I was talking with a friend a while ago about how X-Men, if you're an older fan, really gives you a warped idea of how superhero team books work because it has some early stretches where consistent creative teams stayed on it for a lot longer than normal. Granted, even under Claremont there were editorial struggles, but at least there was some cohesiveness behind the voice. Now I can't imagine trying to be on one of these books as a writer. Knowing your whole plan could be hijacked or thrown out a window, or just rebooted (gotta get those legacy issues and new number 1's in) right in the middle with hardly any warning or time to land the plane.

Yeah, part of that is Claremont could not care less about the x-men actually being superheroes. Like, there are not many great X-men villains that I tear my shirt of when they show up. Their best will always be Magneto and Claremont didn't want him to be a villain anymore.

 

[JakeEkiss]

Yeah, part of that is Claremont could not care less about the x-men actually being superheroes. Like, there are not many great X-men villains that I tear my shirt of when they show up. Their best will always be Magneto and Claremont didn't want him to be a villain anymore.

I think him not caring about that was one of the strong suits of the book. They aren't going out nightly and hunting crime, and because of that their adventures tend to be weirder, more diverse, and a lot more character driven. I think it's sort of a brilliant conceit of the book overall.

I disagree about the villains. Magneto is obviously great, but they've got some real bangers in there. Sinister and Apocalypse are fun rivals in the evolutionary determinism racket. Sentinels are, when done right, some of the most existentially terrifying enemies on tap. I grant a lot of the X-Men "rogues" fall into "antagonist" more than "villain", but again, I think that's a feature, not a bug.

 

[Jolene00Negative]

yeah, I think Sinister is fun, but also kinda lame, like he's rarely a threat.

and Apocalypse is a snooze fest

Mojo and Arcade rule, but Arcade is universally great with way more than just the x-men

Juggy used to be cool but even he reformed

anyway, all of this is why i never really call them superheroes. they don't really do the typical stuff, they couldn't care less if the serpent society is robbing a bank or whatever

 

[Stoopid_Sandwich]

Who created Mr Sinister and Apocalypse? Was that Louise Simonson?

Also I’ve gone on record with this before but I feel like the sentinels have been and always will be an escalation joke. “Oh the X-Men clearly dispatched 5 of these towering robots? Well here’s 20,000of them plus a Mastermold. *thumbs nose* neener neener!”


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[RichardSimmonsRobot]

I think one of the main issues with the X-book now is the lingering Krakoa repercussions. Those that liked that era dislike that the X-Books don't emanate the same as they did during that time. Those that were 90s fans or earlier dislike that the current X-Books don't seem to resonate with what they remember either. Current editorial seems solely concerned with sales rather than cohesive storytelling, which amounts to "slap a #1 on it and shove it out the door." Krakoa seems to be a dividing line on a lot of things, villains included.

Of course that's not to say everyone feels like one or the other. I'm sure some have more nuanced views, but I and the majority of my X-fans in my circle seem to fall on one side or the other of that "Krakoa Era Complaint."

I think that's contributed to a "neutered" feel to some of the villains, as they did it earlier on with trying to stick Juggernaut in the X-Men. When he was back to being bad after that he never felt like quite the same threat. Sinister and Apocalypse should feel like off-the-wall long game threats when they appear. Magneto hasn't felt like an imposing or lethal threat to me since the Jim Lee X-Men #1 thru Fatal Attractions era. He came back somewhat with the New X-Men Xorn thing, and appeared to be becoming a threat again when he took over Genosha, but both of those seemed to get watered down before they switched gears into something else.

 

[Schizm]

Also I’ve gone on record with this before but I feel like the sentinels have been and always will be an escalation joke. “Oh the X-Men clearly dispatched 5 of these towering robots? Well here’s 20,000of them plus a Mastermold. *thumbs nose* neener neener!”

X97 really lost me when every other human suddenly started turning into a Sentinel. That was just... way too much, and it was unclear if they had all volunteered or been turned against their will, and then they all get slaughtered/deactivated which equals dead? That's a really big deal that's swept under the rug.

Five really good enemies are so much scarier than a horde. MCU Age of Ultron would have been so much more fun if Ultron just designed an Ultron bot to take on each Avenger instead of 800 "indestructible" bots.

 

[Jolene00Negative]

Of course the flipside of the hot take is:

Avengers also don't have many good villains.

You've got Ultron, and, uh....well the Masters of Evil seem fun in theory, but there's a lot of dorks in their ranks

 

[altcunningham]

I think one of the main issues with the X-book now is the lingering Krakoa repercussions. Those that liked that era dislike that the X-Books don't emanate the same as they did during that time. Those that were 90s fans or earlier dislike that the current X-Books don't seem to resonate with what they remember either. Current editorial seems solely concerned with sales rather than cohesive storytelling, which amounts to "slap a #1 on it and shove it out the door." Krakoa seems to be a dividing line on a lot of things, villains included.

Of course that's not to say everyone feels like one or the other. I'm sure some have more nuanced views, but I and the majority of my X-fans in my circle seem to fall on one side or the other of that "Krakoa Era Complaint."

I think that's contributed to a "neutered" feel to some of the villains, as they did it earlier on with trying to stick Juggernaut in the X-Men. When he was back to being bad after that he never felt like quite the same threat. Sinister and Apocalypse should feel like off-the-wall long game threats when they appear. Magneto hasn't felt like an imposing or lethal threat to me since the Jim Lee X-Men #1 thru Fatal Attractions era. He came back somewhat with the New X-Men Xorn thing, and appeared to be becoming a threat again when he took over Genosha, but both of those seemed to get watered down before they switched gears into something else.

I just don't think most of the books are that good.

I like some conceptually. I used to like some of the talent attached. I do not think they are doing a good job. And this is basically how I have felt since they pivoted with Krakoa to keep it going.

There's too much inconsistency. Kitty becomes Kate. Now she's Kitty again. She was a badass pirate. Now she's back to being a badass ninja. I feel like a lot of the characters keep getting reinvented anytime a new writer comes on and they're not doing it for a love of the franchise or even the character, but because a lot of writers are just doing self-insert fanfic power fantasy these days once they get into the franchise they loved as a teen. Even Spider-Man had it because Paul is just an insert for Wells and his divorce and bitterness. They wrapped that up quick once someone else got their hands on them.

Anyway. Something I love about the post Krakoa is the younger New Mutant characters. I think they are clever and weird. In a way the original New mutants and Gen X were. Or I think I've gone on record here that I love Jitter, the AudHd As a Toggle Power goddess. Just a fun concept and execution. Anytime that book gets legs though, they have to ram it into a crossover to sustain every other book.

This rant is just to say that not all readers are hateful because of an era or a status quo change. I will always love X-Men. And there will always be some run that is terrible. That's just the nature of this long form eternal storytelling. I think the difference from me versus the average internet dweller is I'm willing to sit on the bench and come back later. Always have. It's not the end of the world or the franchise.

 

[Jolene00Negative]

Paul 4 Life! All Hail Paul MJ's one true Love! (not really, but they had some fun) (calling him a self insert representing Wells divorce and bitterness is a wild take though. If that were true Paul would have more of a personality)

I love Exceptional X-Men, Kitty and Emma in Chicago teaching a couple of new mutant teens? Fun stuff!


What's been shocking to me is Med MacKay who killed it on Dr. Strange, Moon Knight, and Black Cat just...whiffing it on X-Men, and his Avengers hasn't been great until he did the space heist with Felicia

 

[JakeEkiss]

yeah, I think Sinister is fun, but also kinda lame, like he's rarely a threat.

and Apocalypse is a snooze fest

Mojo and Arcade rule, but Arcade is universally great with way more than just the x-men

Juggy used to be cool but even he reformed

anyway, all of this is why i never really call them superheroes. they don't really do the typical stuff, they couldn't care less if the serpent society is robbing a bank or whatever

Legit never seen someone prefer Mojo and Arcade to Sinister and Apocalypse. Let your freak flag fly. I dig all four of them for different reasons.

Who created Mr Sinister and Apocalypse? Was that Louise Simonson?

Also I’ve gone on record with this before but I feel like the sentinels have been and always will be an escalation joke. “Oh the X-Men clearly dispatched 5 of these towering robots? Well here’s 20,000of them plus a Mastermold. *thumbs nose* neener neener!”


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See, this I think is an issue with the medium. There's hardly a comic villain around with more than 10 years of backstory that I don't think has been either completely defanged by overuse (and often being reformed), or marginalized to the point of absurdity. But that's a function of the monthly perpetual release schedule. I kind of take all comic villains as how I feel about them conceptually and in context of their best bits, rather than taking every story of theirs in continuity because, well, they basically all get watered down by their worst depictions if we take it all in.

It's the thing I mentioned either here or another thread when comparing Nimrod to the Borg. The Borg, first two, even three times out the gate with the TNG crew, fantastic baddies. Once they become recurring on Voyager they lose any semblance of threat. And it's just how they're treated. You could make the Borg cool again today, but you can't treat them like a villain of the week. You gotta be disciplined enough to use them sparingly and to give them big shit to do.

I think the same is true of sentinels. One thing that drew me into the Powers of/House of books was the Sentinels felt threatening immediately. Hickman sets up this ticking clock of how much time before someone creates a Nimrod, and how once that happens it's all over. Then he sets up bigger stakes about the deep time and AI vs organic life. And even without Nimrod, that first mission to the Mother Mold kills the entire team. That's pretty good. Feels very Days of Future Past.