U.S. Politics

I see it as the opposite. Every act of violence just weaponizes the next generation toward someone to hate. If they grow up in a world where they think their dad was a martyr, we just end up with more people who continue his work. It's a small scale "every time we drop a bomb on another country, we extend how long that country hates us." Which, today of all days... y'know. We need more situations like Musk's kids disowning and shaming him in public. But as we've said multiple times already, sometimes someone invites the consequences of their own actions and what else can we do but acknowledge it.

Was it in this thread or somewhere else I saw that two people who worked tirelessly to remove helmet safety laws for motorcycles in their states died in motorcycle crashes? Only in this case it's not a kid growing up and thinking "if my dad had worn a helmet he'd still be here," but rather someone killed my dad and the big orange man said it's because of trans people" or whatever fucked up narrative our country will give to it.
 
I see it as the opposite. Every act of violence just weaponizes the next generation toward someone to hate. If they grow up in a world where they think their dad was a martyr, we just end up with more people who continue his work. It's a small scale "every time we drop a bomb on another country, we extend how long that country hates us." Which, today of all days... y'know. We need more situations like Musk's kids disowning and shaming him in public. But as we've said multiple times already, sometimes someone invites the consequences of their own actions and what else can we do but acknowledge it.

Was it in this thread or somewhere else I saw that two people who worked tirelessly to remove helmet safety laws for motorcycles in their states died in motorcycle crashes? Only in this case it's not a kid growing up and thinking "if my dad had worn a helmet he'd still be here," but rather someone killed my dad and the big orange man said it's because of trans people" or whatever fucked up narrative our country will give to it.

I don't at all disagree about the first part- violence begets violence more often than not. But at the same time, all it takes is one person who wants to break the cycle. Yeah, I know, that sounds hippy-dippy and whatnot, and it's never quite that simple, but in some ways it is. Every action, however small, ends up effecting and inspiring others. One less person willing to resort to violence can make a big change. Obviously there's still endless amounts of violence going on, but the butterfly effect of any one given person is almost impossible to quantify sometimes.

We're not gonna know how his kids skew for quite a while. Obviously their childhood is going to be filled with people close to their parents telling them what a good man their father was. With any luck, once they reach an age where they can think for themselves, they'll start to see that what their father said and stood for harmed many people, not just their father. I'm sure his daughter will see the video of her father saying that she'd be forced to give birth if she were raped as a 10 year old. She'll see what her father really thought of her, and while my heart goes out to her- what a godawful thing to hear your father say about you- I hope that it'll allow her some good from the bad by freeing herself of her father's views. He's not some saint because he was murdered for his views; that would be like saying Hitler was a saint because his death stopped a war.

Not trying to center myself in all this, but for example- violence and mental illness and addiction of all sorts run in my family- it has for quite a while, and for a long time, everyone just seemed to accept that it was their fate as well. But in the last generation or so, they've made active strides to acknowledge the bad, the harm it was doing to all involved, and do their part to end the cycle. We're not perfect, of course- we mess up more often than not, but we acknowledge what came before and the damage it's done, and we're doing everything we can to, at the very least, not pass that on to the next generation, and if we do, lessen it as much as we can.

It's never that clean cut, granted, and it takes a strong person to be able to step outside themselves and see what their actions are doing to others, and not everyone is willing or able to do it. I can only hope that by the time his kids are old enough to think for themselves- a decade or more away- we'll have made some strides, however small, toward curbing some of this violence and hate. I think even moreso than the death itself, I think we should be focusing on why and how the death occurred and what the takeaway is or should be.
 
Yeah, we won't know til they're grown. They're humans and unformed at this point. Will his Nazi friends indoctrinate them anyway? Would they have grown up, gone to art school, learned empathy, and come to hate his views? Maybe. Or maybe their first haircuts are high and tights and they learn to drop slurs before they learn to say mama and dada. We'll never know. I'm not comfortable saying they're better off without them because who knows what this moment leads to how they develop from here.

It's never clear cut. I think "they're better off without him" does a lot of lifting when, as we've seen generation after generation, hatred abhors a vacuum and will whoosh in to fill it. Depending on where they go from here, one of them could win a Nobel Peace Prize or one of them could be the next Trump. One bullet doesn't determine that.
 
Aaaaaand here we go

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He was still a husband, and more importantly, a father. I feel for his kids who are too young to have any true idea why their Dad is dead. Not so much for his wife. She knew who she married. Though again, I don't condone killing someone for their shitty views.

a lot of awful people throughout history had children. I don't think merely having children automatically makes somebody more virtuous than somebody who doesn't.
 
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a lot of awful people throughout history had children. I don't think merely having children automatically makes somebody more virtuous than somebody who doesn't.
Did I not state clearly enough how much I didn't like his views? I sure as heck didn't make any statement about him being virtuous. But not liking this guy, as I clearly stated I don't, doesn't mean killing him is right.
 
all it takes is one person who wants to break the cycle
Well, and I cited Northern Ireland earlier... but of course while there was still violence and still provos trying to do the same stuff etc, and even now, but the Good Friday Agreement had a massive effect on the country. Yes there's still more to do, even aside from a united Ireland, but I'm with you.
 
I think there is a HUGE difference between “this guy should be killed” and “we are all much better off with this guy dead”.

As far as I know, only one person took the first statement to its conclusion, and that person will likely have to face consequences for that.

I see no problem, morally, ethically, or otherwise, with fully embracing the second statement.
 
I think there is a HUGE difference between “this guy should be killed” and “we are all much better off with this guy dead”.

As far as I know, only one person took the first statement to its conclusion, and that person will likely have to face consequences for that.

I see no problem, morally, ethically, or otherwise, with fully embracing the second statement.
Exactly. As Ashley C. Ford brilliantly put it:


It's shameful that the likes of Ezra Klein and Barack Obama have spoken up. Obama decried the violence after standing silent in the aftermath of the Minnesota assassinations. Klein wrote a piece in the New York Times about how Kirk "practiced politics the right way." I won't do him or his propaganda outlet the favor of linking to it here.

I don't think Kirk should've been killed for his views. I also think it's inarguable that he made the world worse. He poured gasoline on our fragile democracy. He incited political violence. He called for the death of minorities. He was an avowed white supremacist. Meanwhile, he sat back and counted his money, thinking he was immune to consequences. The fact that he wasn't was what made yesterday so shocking. We can be shocked and appalled by yesterday's events without writing Kirk's hagiography. Let's not do his memory a disservice. He died in support of the project he helped build. Today's America is Charlie Kirk's America, for better or worse.
 
I think there is a HUGE difference between “this guy should be killed” and “we are all much better off with this guy dead”.

As far as I know, only one person took the first statement to its conclusion, and that person will likely have to face consequences for that.

it would be nuts if the guy who shot Kirk was even more right-wing (I believe the technical term is 'groyper')

though not comforting since that would mean those people a) exist and b) have easy access to firearms
 
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