U.S. Politics

[Misfit]

Conservatives love doing evil shit, but I don't know if there's anything they love more than brutalizing protestors. Trump will probably host the asshole driver who ran over a protestor this weekend and bestow some award upon them. They're so eager to portray this protest as some violent demonstration of citizen revolt so they can normalize this sort of thing when other protests break out. I know we're all getting sick of reading and seeing such, but this is just textbook fascism on display.

 

[Damien]

I remain cautiously optimistic that troops, the National Guard, whomever, will not fire on U.S. citizens. If they do, I think that's the end of Donald Trump's presidency.

They absolutely will.

Like... without a doubt in my mind.

 

[joshsquash729]

Oh, for sure. In their minds, there's no such thing as a "peaceful" protester. The very act of protesting is, in and of itself, a violent act to them. Even if there's video evidence proving that said protestors did nothing wrong, it'll be excused away by the cops or National Guard feeling "threatened" and like they had no choice but to fire on citizens because of the "perceived, rising threat". As lovely as it would be to have that Hollywood moment of a soldier refusing to follow corrupt orders, that's not the world we live in.

 

[CTV]

They absolutely will.

Like... without a doubt in my mind.

100000000%

A lot of them dream about doing shit like this, especially if the protestors themselves are non-white or can be demonized as LiBeRalS.

 

[Damien]

100000000%

A lot of them dream about doing shit like this, especially if the protestors themselves are non-white or can be demonized as LiBeRalS.

It's definitely partly that. In fact, it's probably 50% that. But it's also more complex. We don't train soldiers to disobey orders, even if we technically tell them they should. In the moment, you follow orders. Not all lawful orders sound lawful at the time and not all unlawful orders sound unlawful at the time. Soldiers, by and large, don't hesitate to do potentially awful shit. This would be no different. If ordered to act, 99% of soldiers will simply act.
Then even if you allow for the existence of soldiers that would immediately be able to figure out this isn't right and is potentially a fully unconstitutional deployment of their weapons; you do what you're ordered to do because if you're the only one that doesn't, you spend the rest of your life in military prison.


The best parallel I have for you guys is Alberta Occupational Health and Safety laws. Follow me on this:
In -theory-, workers have the right to refuse unsafe work. At every level of training, workers are told not to engage in any work that will or may present a significant risk of injury. There's protocols to follow for reporting unsafe conditions and an entire food chain of people that can get involved if there's a dispute. Bottom line being; never do anything that has a reasonable chance of getting you hurt because you have the right as a free person to not die at work for the sake of someone else's profits.

HOWEVER...

Alberta law also makes construction work of ALL kinds a sort of 'at will' employment situation. My employees are construction workers by law. Which means I am legally entitled to fire them without cause at any time, regardless of how long they've been employed. So in theory they can refuse to do any unsafe work I ask them to do. In practice, I can just fire them for refusing and not give any reason why I fired them. And they know it.

The military functions much the same way. Yeah, don't follow illegal orders, but also you're not really entitled to determine was is a legal or illegal order and also we can throw you in prison forever without a public trial so good luck even proving whether you were right.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

To me, there's a clear distinction between 1) police, who love beating the shit out of peaceful protesters; 2) ICE, our country's secret police; and 3) the National Guard/military. We have ample evidence that the first two groups love turning weapons of war on their countrymen. Until it happens, I don't believe the military will do so.

 

[docsilence]

I would love to see that our military has the ethical fortitude to not turn its might on our own citizens, but for a lot of reasons, I wouldn't put a dollar bet on it. My hope isn't that they'll be deployed and refuse to fire, it's rather that someone high enough up that Trump/Hesgeth, etc. won't ignore saying the right combination of words to prevent a deployment in the first place, and with them ousting anyone they disagree with for the past five months, how many yes-men are now in positions where cooler heads would have otherwise prevailed.

 

[Damien]

To me, there's a clear distinction between 1) police, who love beating the shit out of peaceful protesters; 2) ICE, our country's secret police; and 3) the National Guard/military. We have ample evidence that the first two groups love turning weapons of war on their countrymen. Until it happens, I don't believe the military will do so.

Respectfully, I do think this is mostly wishful thinking rather than an honest appraisal.
First of all, there's a lot of former members of group 3 in groups 1 and 2. If groups 1 and 2 do it, then group 3 has the capacity to do it.
Second of all, relevant to what's happening today, is the previous two times in US history that the military was used against citizens were the George Floyd protests and the Rodney King riots. Somewhat similar to what's happening now.
We also should absolutely not forget Kent State, where National Guard murdered unarmed students.

It's also really important to understand how they're going to do it. It's not like Hegseth is going to just show up in a uniform and yell 'fire at the unarmed, peaceful civilians!' They're going to stoke the riots/protests with violent ICE raids. Then they're going to call in local support against the protestors. That local support will absolutely 100% escalate the situation with violence and suppression tactics. This will be, let's be clear, INTENTIONAL (but plausibly deniable) escalation.
When the police can't contain the situation, because they are intentionally actively making it worse, the protestors will be called violent insurrectionists presenting a danger to police and to 'peaceful citizens.' Then the military will be called to act, and at this point they're already primed up that they're facing off against 'violent, armed, deranged antifa terrorists.'

And as soon as one person does one thing that the NG or military can write off as an act of violence - the shooting will start.

 

[Ru1977]

I feel like that's kinda the final word on it. Really fucking lovely. And yesterday they were tear gassing people stuck in a traffic jam in their cars who had no choice but to sit there and watch ICE do their raid, not even protesting, but they were recording on their phones and apparently that was enough. Can't protest and can't document. It's really fucking enraging. And what happens when the shooting starts with the National Guard or even the Marines? Will California simply be occupied or will it lead to some civil war/new secession? Will someone be able to stop it at some point eventually or is this just the beginning of the new order?

 

[AceofKnaves]

I’ve lived in the LA area for over 25 years.

They can try, but they’ll find out that we don’t do being “occupied”.

Fuck with LA, you WILL find out.

MAGA is not welcome here. We will fight back. If they want to start shooting civilians, they’d better have brought A LOT of ammo.

 

[Ru1977]

I’ve lived in the LA area for over 25 years.

Heh, I have not, so I appreciate your perspective.

They can try, but they’ll find out that we don’t do being “occupied”.

Fuck with LA, you WILL find out.

Part of me definitely believes this. Just knowing the people I do know around the Long Beach area and in San Pedro, definitely the mentality I'm picking up.

MAGA is not welcome here. We will fight back. If they want to start shooting civilians, they’d better have brought A LOT of ammo.

Agreed. And I have to assume if it comes to that, something will break in DC. But I honestly don't know.

 

[Damien]

Will someone be able to stop it at some point eventually or is this just the beginning of the new order?

Historically speaking? You don't want the answer to that question.

 

[docsilence]

My greatest concern since day 1 was the moment he asks the military to take a side, because following orders in this case IS taking a side, and if the military won't stand up for US citizens then we're fucked. It's civil war or a dictatorship. And we've absolutely allowed people to drive the narrative in such a way to make the military a partisan issue. Twenty years of building resentment that one side doesn't support them, all while cutting benefits and leaving veterans out to hang once they're home rather than properly funding the VA et al.

Maybe there are people quietly working against it, but standing up against inhuman orders is a uniquely brave act, and I do not not think the majority of humans have it in them to take that particular stand. Courage is hard when it comes at the cost of your identity and potentially your freedom.

My hope at this point is he's bluffing and he'll keep using these 1099 cosplaytriots to do his dirty work so we won't have to find out what happens with Marines in LA, but I wouldn't put anything past this administration.

 

[Ru1977]

Historically speaking? You don't want the answer to that question.

Yeah.... I know.

Maybe there are people quietly working against it

I seriously hope so. Christ.

Courage is hard when it comes at the cost of your identity and potentially your freedom.

Of course. And I really don't hold out a lot of hope for any active military person to disobey orders. I know a lot of people on social media are pointing out they take an oath to protect and uphold the constitution and wouldn't turn on American citizens, but I also know talk is cheap. not to say they'll full of shit, but again... it's clearly a monumental leap to disobey orders. The best hope, to me, is a CO or someone saying "Nope, stand down."

I guess part of me is a little shocked we got to this point in six months. I know Damien is thinking about how naive I am right now.

 

[AceofKnaves]

To be clear:

Civil war before dictatorship.

Death before submission to MAGA.

I mean that very seriously.


Also: anyone who cares to know, knows that SoCal LEO orgs are rife with racist fash gangs, but even the Los Angeles Police Department and the California Highway Patrol are disavowing this MAGA thuggery.