Chooch555
Thoughtful
I do feel like I spoiled a lot of the movie for myself by watching trailers and trailer analysis. I need to stick to my rule about not watching anything post initial teaser. Well, it's been more of a guideline I guess.
Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion
- Thread starter Ru1977
- Start date
PanchaMaestro
Studious
I mean social media is destroying nearly everything good in the world any way. Cut down on that and don't click on things with the movie in the title; usually I can make it. Though I do have a sense of what probably is gonna happen in FF. Could be wrong. I'm far more interested in tone, theme and character than plot generally.
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Normally I see Marvel movies ASAP to avoid spoilers, but I scheduled a trip home last week and so I took my Mom with me on Friday - she really enjoyed the movie! Florence is that great.
Did anyone pick up the Red Guardian Limo AMC was selling? I was tempted and asked the price after the movie - $49.99!!! Heck no. But the action figures would look REALLY cool posed around it.
Did anyone pick up the Red Guardian Limo AMC was selling? I was tempted and asked the price after the movie - $49.99!!! Heck no. But the action figures would look REALLY cool posed around it.
How are y'all feeling about how they played this? I want to know how Olga feels, actually - two hours of make-up for 30 minutes of work and then she has to lie for a YEAR?! I hope she got paid a lot.
Did her death actually help the plot? Serious question - I'm curious what people think. It allowed them to explain the baggage each of these character's carries in a way. Gave Ava some development that A&W didn't. But it kinda wasted a character without a payoff. I'm not one who cares about Taskmaster at all - I can't even remember this version's name - but I hate seeing characters fridged to develop others. But if we were to lose one - and I'm really glad we didn't lose anyone else - Taskmaster was always the one I cared about least.
Did her death actually help the plot? Serious question - I'm curious what people think. It allowed them to explain the baggage each of these character's carries in a way. Gave Ava some development that A&W didn't. But it kinda wasted a character without a payoff. I'm not one who cares about Taskmaster at all - I can't even remember this version's name - but I hate seeing characters fridged to develop others. But if we were to lose one - and I'm really glad we didn't lose anyone else - Taskmaster was always the one I cared about least.
Ru1977
The Irishman
I can't answer that, but I noticed she got really high billing for someone barely in it, so I assume she was seriously compensated.
In my opinion, no. Did we really need to see Ghost as a serious threat? I don't think so. They're all clearly badass and ruthless.
Agreed. One of the first things my son said to me coming out of the theater was what a rough ride that character had, and all for nothing.
It's kinda compounded by the screenwriter saying he was as surprised as everyone else when he saw he movie as he'd written an entire arc for Taskmaster, where Ghost kinda took her under her wing to help recover from all her own trauma. Her memory also slipped in and out, so apparently every now and then she would try to kill Walker again until they all reminded her what had happened since then.
Technically, I don't either. I did have hopes for her to get some kinda plot and found this disappointing, especially since it didn't clearly serve a purpose. Are we supposed to believe any of them could go at any point, like Game of Thrones or Walking Dead? Because it only showed the biggest threat to the Thunderbolts is other Thunderbolts. Just... I dunno. Whatever they were trying to convey with that didnt work for me. Would have been just fine having Us Agent, Ghost, and Yelena in a murder triangle before they realize Val set them up and I feel we would have lost nothing.
And she barely even was that. I don't see how it developed Ghost at all really.
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Ru1977
The Irishman
I guess it's nice Olga came but come on.
joshsquash729
Born on the cob
Mentioned it briefly over in the Legends thread, but I did finally get around to seeing this one today, and man, it really touched a heartstring or two. I wasn't really familiar with Bob/Sentry/Void before, but what a standout. His pain room, or whatever you wanna call it, really hit close to home for me. It really meant a lot to me to see someone who's clearly struggling with their happiness and place in this world, and see him not only become a hero, but be loved and accepted despite his darkness and his flaws. I really liked the imagery of the repetition with reliving the trauma- the same event happening over and over, and if you try and stop it, it actively stops you and tells you you're not ready. I can't even really explain it, but that's kinda what it's felt like before- even though I feel and sometimes know that I'm ready to overcome my past traumas, the second I step up to the plate, my mind tells me no and kicks my ass back to home plate.
Loved the imagery of the Void too, with all the shadows, and how present it is throughout the film, even in the beginning with Yelena's hallway fight, and seeing the 2 shadows still on the wall from Bob's experiments. The moment that drew the biggest shocked crowd reaction I've heard in a long time, at least since Endgame, was the moment with Red Guardian and the little girl.
I do think it really nailed the whole "found family" thing, at least in terms of what I want in a found family story. They clearly get on each other's nerves at the start, and that doesn't even necessarily change come the end, but they clearly had affection for one another. Really great chemistry across the board. I think it really managed to walk that fine line of sweetly sentimental and emotional without getting too cheesy and melodramatic. It really worked for me.
I would have to agree though, that the moment that didn't really sit right with me was
All that aside, though, I had a really fun time with it. It had way more heart than expected, the humor really hit, and I just found the characters to be likable. Marvel's always done a pretty good job with humanizing the characters, but it really worked here. I enjoy when characters- good or bad- are allowed to be messy and morally gray.
Loved the imagery of the Void too, with all the shadows, and how present it is throughout the film, even in the beginning with Yelena's hallway fight, and seeing the 2 shadows still on the wall from Bob's experiments. The moment that drew the biggest shocked crowd reaction I've heard in a long time, at least since Endgame, was the moment with Red Guardian and the little girl.
The one-two punch of him saving her, only for her to explode into a shadow was such a good moment. The whole theater gasped and kinda nervously laughed.
I do think it really nailed the whole "found family" thing, at least in terms of what I want in a found family story. They clearly get on each other's nerves at the start, and that doesn't even necessarily change come the end, but they clearly had affection for one another. Really great chemistry across the board. I think it really managed to walk that fine line of sweetly sentimental and emotional without getting too cheesy and melodramatic. It really worked for me.
I would have to agree though, that the moment that didn't really sit right with me was
how Taskmaster was handled. I get that it's supposed to play into the theme of pain overcoming you and how a life of pain and solitude leads to an early death and all that, but I still think she should've been given some sort of redemption. Heck, I don't think they needed to kill her at all, stakes be damned (you could still have Ghost prove herself a worthy combatant by shooting her but not killing her). Or have her overcome her pain and give up the mantle at the end. If they felt the need to kill her, at least give her another couple scenes to flesh her out and give her some redemption before being killed, either by Sentry or Holt. It just kinda didn't sit right that she had such a terrible life living as a puppet, then sort of got freedom, but then became a mercenary and then died quickly and without any meaningful connections in life. Which again, I get plays into the theme, but....eh. It also kinda just a liiiittle bit like another studio giving in to the toxic fanboys who decried the fact that they changed a popular character. Granted, at least nobody in my showing clapped or cheered or anything when she died, but it still felt like they took the easy way out, and I don't see how, for me, it won't make it awkward whenever they do reintroduce a more "accurate" version later down the road. If she had to die at all, I feel like they could've at least not made her the only death- I know the director said he wanted "stakes", but killing her quickly and early and then not killing anyone else when the thing ten times as powerful and threatening as Ghost comes along feels a little off.
I also kind of get the impression that Marvel couldn't make up their minds on how to play the moment in marketing either- at first they spliced her into trailers and stuff, and then it just seemed like they stopped caring altogether, and it became super obvious, but they still kept putting her on the posters, but not inviting her to all the premieres and everything. Lots of back and forth. And yeah, I noticed too that Olga got, what, 4th or 5th billing? Which is great for her, but even with a nice payday, I'd have been really bummed at being the ONLY death in a movie like this, when everyone else on the team gets to go on and become the freaking New Avengers, which is undoubtedly even more money and success. If I were her, I'd probably have sooner asked to just write me out with a line or two explaining what happened, rather than have to waste my time. If I didn't know any better, I'd have thought that Marvel had a vendetta against Olga herself.
I also kind of get the impression that Marvel couldn't make up their minds on how to play the moment in marketing either- at first they spliced her into trailers and stuff, and then it just seemed like they stopped caring altogether, and it became super obvious, but they still kept putting her on the posters, but not inviting her to all the premieres and everything. Lots of back and forth. And yeah, I noticed too that Olga got, what, 4th or 5th billing? Which is great for her, but even with a nice payday, I'd have been really bummed at being the ONLY death in a movie like this, when everyone else on the team gets to go on and become the freaking New Avengers, which is undoubtedly even more money and success. If I were her, I'd probably have sooner asked to just write me out with a line or two explaining what happened, rather than have to waste my time. If I didn't know any better, I'd have thought that Marvel had a vendetta against Olga herself.
All that aside, though, I had a really fun time with it. It had way more heart than expected, the humor really hit, and I just found the characters to be likable. Marvel's always done a pretty good job with humanizing the characters, but it really worked here. I enjoy when characters- good or bad- are allowed to be messy and morally gray.
GrumpyMatt
Pensive
Taskmaster was supposed to have a much larger role in the film.
Thunderbolts screenwriter didn't know Marvel cut his original Taskmaster arc until he watched the movie
Thunderbolts screenwriter didn't know Marvel cut his original Taskmaster arc until he watched the movie
Ru1977
The Irishman
Heh, tell me you don't read other people's posts without saying you don't read other people's posts.
Hey, he cited reference, which was exactly what I was about to ask you. 
Also, Sebastian Stan's current baldness at least explains Bucky's bad blowout. That'll be fun to watch for an extended film.
Also also, I liked how low-budget this felt. It's a lot of rooms and they talk. Which puts the focus on the building relationships which is always my favorite stuff, but I wonder how much of that was trying to streamline shooting once the strikes wreaked havoc.
Bob looked terrible in the penthouse and I wonder if David Harbour was even shooting with the rest of the cast in those scenes - he's always off camera, or to the side, like he had to be at Stranger Things so they shot around him and picked up his angles. And not even a mention of Melina.
That might be what this movie was missing. Ava just went missing for large parts and was therefore underwritten. Did she ever have one scene alone?
My thinking on this is Marvel either:
- realized they had one two three too many Russian characters on their New Avengers team so eliminating the least charismatic early was the solution
- Olga wasn't available once the strikes changed the schedule
- Olga wasn't available for subsequent films or didn't want to do anymore - she works a LOT
- not involving the screenwriter in this change is so, SO arrogant. He NEVER visited the set?
- a combo of all the above?
My thinking on this is Marvel either:
- realized they had one two three too many Russian characters on their New Avengers team so eliminating the least charismatic early was the solution
- Olga wasn't available once the strikes changed the schedule
- Olga wasn't available for subsequent films or didn't want to do anymore - she works a LOT
- not involving the screenwriter in this change is so, SO arrogant. He NEVER visited the set?
- a combo of all the above?
Also, Sebastian Stan's current baldness at least explains Bucky's bad blowout. That'll be fun to watch for an extended film.
Also also, I liked how low-budget this felt. It's a lot of rooms and they talk. Which puts the focus on the building relationships which is always my favorite stuff, but I wonder how much of that was trying to streamline shooting once the strikes wreaked havoc.
Bob looked terrible in the penthouse and I wonder if David Harbour was even shooting with the rest of the cast in those scenes - he's always off camera, or to the side, like he had to be at Stranger Things so they shot around him and picked up his angles. And not even a mention of Melina.
GrumpyMatt
Pensive
Sorry, there's too many spoiler tags in here, I thought I saw that somewhere else.
I haven't seen anything about this but my initial thought was that they filmed Olga scenes and then decided during editing her stuff didn't really work or they needed to cut down the run time. Her and Ghost are definitely the "lesser" characters in the film so the impact on Ghost's screen time probably wouldn't be a big consideration.
The too many Russians idea is interesting, too. Particularly these days.
The too many Russians idea is interesting, too. Particularly these days.
Ru1977
The Irishman
True, I definitely should have. I've seen a few sites run the story so I didn't even think to link it.
I was about to say, "No, but who ever did?" And realized... most of them. She also didn't get a trauma flashback moment from Bob, but that kinda worked because Walker had to clue them in to that. Red Guardian didn't get a trauma flashback either, but we clearly didn't need it since he's still living his depression pretty hard when we first see him in the film.
As I pointed out early, Olga had pretty high billing, so maybe they did film some of this stuff with her and left it out. They did have reshoots, and it wouldn't be hard to have two stuntladies in the masked suits do that part. Well, and have Russell come in since he and Ghost took some of Taskmaster's toys. I don't remember Yelena's reaction too well but that could have been funny editing and ADR work.
The impression I got from... shit, I can't even remember who now, but maybe the director? Was Taskmaster's arc felt redundant with Yelena's journey. I'm not fully getting that from what the screenwriter is saying, but obviously I didn't see the dailies.
You're really obsessed with wigs it seems, which stands out to me only because I really rarely ever notice wigs. I still can't tell, heh.
Completely agreed. I'm into action and all that, but I LOOOOOOOOVE character moments. Two people sitting at a table having a discussion, WITH SUBTITLES, was a gripping way to start Inglourious Bastards. The party scene is in my top five moments of Age of Ultron. This movie was rife with character moments and discussions and I was just giddy about it.
I did notice he seems off to the side a lot, and Stranger Things is definitely a possibility for it. Maybe he was green screened in sometimes.
I saw him mention her in an interview, heh. I know that doesn't count, but he seems hopeful to explore that in the future.
I'm really kidding, and of course I get it. There are a ton of spoiler thingies to click, then we end up being real verbose in these posts.
joshsquash729
Born on the cob
I may have just missed it if it was mentioned, but was it ever said whether or not they actually filmed
any of the Taskmaster stuff, or was it changed in the script process? It sounds like a heck of a lot to have to cut around or reshoot if it was actually filmed. Personally, I don't think having 3 Russian characters on one team is that big a deal, especially since they're all pretty different from each other personality-wise. It's not like we ever complain there are too many Americans on a team. All they'd really have had to do would be to have 1 throwaway line joking about it and move on. Or they could've just not included her in the team at all; it kinda just comes across to me like they wanted the character or actress gone, but maybe they contractually had to include her in something else. I know Ghost and Walker looted her body, and we saw one of her weapons sticking out of Walker's pants at one point, but did any of them actually use her stuff? I can't remember. Using stuntwomen is a good point- both characters would, theoretically, spend large amounts of time in their masks, so you'd really only need some ADR here and there.
From the sound of it, there definitely were similarities between her arc and both Yelena and Bob's (with her having the memory lapses), but I actually kinda like that. Characters having similarities to one another isn't a bad thing, it allows them to bond, and seeing how each handles their issues and how their respective stories end up is what's interesting.
From the sound of it, there definitely were similarities between her arc and both Yelena and Bob's (with her having the memory lapses), but I actually kinda like that. Characters having similarities to one another isn't a bad thing, it allows them to bond, and seeing how each handles their issues and how their respective stories end up is what's interesting.
Ru1977
The Irishman
Agreed.
I actually really liked the idea of her memory lapsing and she keeps trying to kill Walker. Again, I REALLY loved the movie, but I think it would have been even better to have her and Ava's sideplot in there.
It was probably as simple as 'this movie is fifteen minutes too long.... let's just cut one character completely out'.
But yeah, I'm not sure anything with her beyond the underground facility was filmed. I don't even know the story of the shot of her in the tower with the others. Was she added digitally? Was she removed digitally? Which is it? There was certainly room for her in the limo, but I don't see her being tied up with the other four after Bucky captures them, unless that scene was part of reshoots.
I dunno. I'm on the verge of #justicefortaskmaster
release the taskmaster cut, and all that.
It was probably as simple as 'this movie is fifteen minutes too long.... let's just cut one character completely out'.
But yeah, I'm not sure anything with her beyond the underground facility was filmed. I don't even know the story of the shot of her in the tower with the others. Was she added digitally? Was she removed digitally? Which is it? There was certainly room for her in the limo, but I don't see her being tied up with the other four after Bucky captures them, unless that scene was part of reshoots.
I dunno. I'm on the verge of #justicefortaskmaster
release the taskmaster cut, and all that.
joshsquash729
Born on the cob
Oh yeah- if they did film any of it, include it on the home media release, whether it's canon or not. At least fans can have it to chew on and lament over, like with all the Padme scenes in Revenge of the Sith.
CTV
Ponderous
I just got back from Thunderbolts and thought it was the best Suicide Squad movie yet. I'm glad I avoided spoilers; I didn't expect it to be as emotional as it was.