Four Horsemen Studios Mythic Legions

[Damien]

but the forever-DM backs-too-many-indie-TTRPGs guy in me knows they are going to cock up the game and make it unplayable and that kinda vaguely offends my sensibilities like a bad smell.

I'm very mildly offended that they're even doing it at all. Like, I get real 'who the fuck do you think you are?' about this. The lore they made up for their fucking toys isn't even GOOD. Fuck off with this entire thing. To be fair, though, I would not be surprised if their entire TTRPG isn't just stolen from someone else and re-skinned, with just enough game-breaking changes to make it not easily legally actionable.

And Jesus H. Macy that Boss Fight goblin is embarrassing. WTF went wrong there?

My guess would be the company being run by a greedy scumbag that doesn't care about quality forcing the two people that actually knew what they were doing out of the company and stealing their life's work. But that's just a guess.

I will continue to point out that everything HACKS, and especially the unlicensed HACKS stuff, was Catrina and Erik's baby. Andrew does not give a fuck about that stuff beyond trying to string along the people that still, for some reason, support the company and want that specific type of product.

Also, all he did here was put a different head and accessories with the Fantasy HACKS halfling that Catrina designed, which is why the body looks like a fairy tale elf.

I feel like I'm dog-piling but I say this as someone who will get a few of their player character figures and skip the game - I would LOVE to see the numbers at the end of it comparing how many people buy and play the game versus how many just get the figures. The video game elves and orcs certainly outlived the game itself.

Worth keeping in mind that because so many "4H fans" are total simps that live inside Treadaway's colon, lots of people are going to buy the game just to have it and 'support this tiny little studio that really needs us.' I'd be willing to bet no one plays the fucking game at all, maybe beyond once just for the novelty of it.
And we'll never see those numbers anyway. I'm sure people will pretend they play it all the time.

 

[Alt]

Way back when Destiny the video game was about to launch, they kept hyping how up their own lore and repeating how it was going to sit on bookshelves and movie shelves and be spoken in the same breath as Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Dune, Harry Potter, etc.

Their lore is whatever. I would say terrible but I know someone who thinks it's the greatest thing ever written superseding Tolkien and Herbert for creativity. But the point is whenever these companies drop some new IP and immediately get ahead of themselves that it's going to be a Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, you know it's going to be trash, because those things were not designed and made. They happened. It was lightning in a bottle with the fandom. But time and again they will try and market it and mandate that the fans try and make this happen.

I don't know if the 4H hype up their own ass that much, but the video game and the tabletop game and everything just give me the same vibes.

With Destiny, I just wanted to shoot s***. If you happen to make action figures I might have been interested. I mean they did and I wasn't but still. Just make Mythic and Cosmic Legions. I have been in those kit bashing and trade groups and there's no way any of those people give a s*** about anything except kit bashing and flipping. At best the cool people write their own lore and come with their own looks.

I know I'm on the record of saying who is this for is a really cop out complaint, but I don't know who any of this is for. Especially it's very clear from both of those other media projects that the figures were the main draw and everyone was suffering the rest ust to get them.

 

[docsilence]

I'm very mildly offended that they're even doing it at all. Like, I get real 'who the fuck do you think you are?' about this. The lore they made up for their fucking toys isn't even GOOD. Fuck off with this entire thing. To be fair, though, I would not be surprised if their entire TTRPG isn't just stolen from someone else and re-skinned, with just enough game-breaking changes to make it not easily legally actionable.

I would put a non-zero dollar value bet that this being 5e compatible they fuck up the process with the Creative Commons/open gaming license somehow by just not following the basics of the agreement and out come the Pinkertons.

 

[Damien]

I'm gonna say some stuff that's gonna get people butt-hurt, as always. So I want to pre-clarify something: You can like 4H action figures. You can think they're great toys. When I go after the '4H fans' - I'm largely talking about the people that will unironically extol their virtues as the greatest toy studio of all time, making the greatest action figures that mankind has ever or will ever know.

I don't know if the 4H hype up their own ass that much, but the video game and the tabletop game and everything just give me the same vibes.

I believe there's a combination of factors here. But also it's not just a belief and I am 100% factually correct.

This is basically the perfect storm of the 4H having bought into their own hype for so long that they -actually- think they're good at everything ("we're the best, our ridiculous fantasy names and bland as fuck fantasy world storyline is great and we need to share it."), combined with having ass-licking simp fanboys that are like "YOU NEED TO MAKE THIS A MOVIE" "YOU NEED TO MAKE THIS A VIDEO GAME" - just whatever they can scream out to get one millisecond of attention and maybe a pat on the head from their heroes.

Take that perfect storm of vanity and ego, and slam it up against the contemptible greed of wanting to have your fingers in every possible thing to get as much money as possible from your customers. Make a video game. Make a comic book. Make an RPG. Make a TV show. Make a movie. ANYTHING that people can pay us money for, even if we have absolutely no fucking idea what we're doing, no business doing it, and no good reason for that thing to exist.

But time and again they will try and market it and mandate that the fans try and make this happen.

Yeah, that's the problem for sure; not making a thing out of any love for the thing and having it become popular because you put so much care and love into it, but starting from a perspective of 'I want to own something that is popular' and trying to work backwards from there. It's the antithesis of actual creativity. Which feels about right for the Horsemen.

Especially it's very clear from both of those other media projects that the figures were the main draw and everyone was suffering the rest ust to get them.

Yep.

I would put a non-zero dollar value bet that this being 5e compatible they fuck up the process with the Creative Commons/open gaming license somehow by just not following the basics of the agreement and out come the Pinkertons.

Oh, definitely.
I can't wait to see how much artwork in the book is clearly just copied from somewhere else.

 

[docsilence]

Oh, definitely.
I can't wait to see how much artwork in the book is clearly just copied from somewhere else.

I actually expect the art in the game books to be mostly action figure photos that double as marketing. Which is fine, people take great pics of their figures. I'm desperately curious knowing how the CC license works and how it's actually fairly generous but does require you to be precise with what you use it for how that'll all shake out.

Their lore is whatever. I would say terrible but I know someone who thinks it's the greatest thing ever written superseding Tolkien and Herbert for creativity. But the point is whenever these companies drop some new IP and immediately get ahead of themselves that it's going to be a Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, you know it's going to be trash, because those things were not designed and made. They happened. It was lightning in a bottle with the fandom. But time and again they will try and market it and mandate that the fans try and make this happen.

I used to review indie comics for a couple of magazines. Now, I firmly believe comics writers get an unfair amount of credit compared to their artist counterparts culturally and by the fans (and by the publishers) but I always saw books that were artists who didn't think they needed a writer. Beautiful books. Story? Utter fucking nonsense. Barely comprehensible. Pretty to look at! Often memorably so! But they'd think they created the new Watchmen or Lord of the Rings and the story just wasn't coherent. Mythic Legions strikes me as like that. They throw around names and places and ideas but it lacks the depth of character or connective tissue you need to really capture a mainstream audience's appeal. (To be fair, A LOT of these smaller company toy lines fall into that. The question is whether they know it and are self-aware or not.)

 

[Alt]

One of my favorite Destiny criticisms came from Penny Arcade where they pointed out that all the proper noun bad guys and plot devices they had looked like things you would have scribbled in cool fonts in your Five Star planner in high school.

I think for me there's a difference between big bad workshop giving us a context, while 4H and Vala presumed to be throwing down some sacred canon. Which is interesting because both of those lines just happen to be things most people Army build and customize.

 

[superdoug55]

Am I understanding the pricing correctly? If I do the $680 set I get 10 figures, the add on accessory packs and a random bag of coins or is it 11 figures and all of that? If it’s 11 it comes out to just over $60 a figure. Not the best value but not terrible if I want all the figures and if the stretch goals add another figure or two to it and additional accessories then the value starts to get better.

 

[Dek]

One of my favorite Destiny criticisms came from Penny Arcade where they pointed out that all the proper noun bad guys and plot devices they had looked like things you would have scribbled in cool fonts in your Five Star planner in high school.

I think for me there's a difference between big bad workshop giving us a context, while 4H and Vala presumed to be throwing down some sacred canon. Which is interesting because both of those lines just happen to be things most people Army build and customize.

I am new to the board and I will preface this with me saying it is intended to add to the conversation and not be contrarian or argumentative; but I think this is very subjective. I prefer lore like the 4H do (I can't speak on Valaverse; the owner seemed like a dick in an interview, he was very attacking of other products, and I didn't bother with him after that.) I'm also a firm believer that the more serious and straight you play it the more you can get others to buy in when its something silly like their lore. Elden Ring is one of my favorite games because of the lore that supplements my fun. Intense lore is for those who want it and need it and shoudl be ignored by others who don't; but that's just my opinion and that's all I'm trying to add to the conversation.

 

[superdoug55]

Also another thing I am curious about and this is not to pile onto the 4H but I am very curious with the way the video game one fell apart that they are allowed to do another Kickstarter. Are you allowed to do more Kickstarters even if you fail to deliver on a previous one? Or since they delivered the figures does it still count as completed even though the game never materialized as advertised? Again not trying to pile on, I am legitimately curious. I have never had bad dealings with the 4H but from around the time of the bird Kickstarter till recently I have pretty much lived under a rock. Life just got really with life, wife and kids, etc. While I still stayed connected to toy news for new releases all of these issues I am just hearing about for the first time now.

 

[Dek]

I think you can. I don't think failure to get the rewards to backers doesn't really count against you, since the fine print says you're kind of taking a gamble by pledging money, but I will be the first to admit this is all assumptions on my part.

 

[Damien]

I actually expect the art in the game books to be mostly action figure photos that double as marketing. Which is fine, people take great pics of their figures. I'm desperately curious knowing how the CC license works and how it's actually fairly generous but does require you to be precise with what you use it for how that'll all shake out.

That's certainly possible, actually, yeah. But I think, if they go that route, they're double-dumb because lots of RPG fans buy books for the art.

They throw around names and places and ideas but it lacks the depth of character or connective tissue you need to really capture a mainstream audience's appeal. (To be fair, A LOT of these smaller company toy lines fall into that. The question is whether they know it and are self-aware or not.)

To Alt's point - I do think we gotta draw a line between 'I am building a huge story and it's so good we might make a movie out of it' and 'I am building myself a reason to make other toys.' Even MOTU, which has a lot of great lore and has had great media come from that lore, was the latter. Because you don't start your toy company thinking that you're fucking JRR Tolkien or Tom Clancy. That would make you a crazy person.

I am new to the board and I will preface this with me saying it is intended to add to the conversation and not be contrarian or argumentative; but I think this is very subjective. I prefer lore like the 4H do (I can't speak on Valaverse; the owner seemed like a dick in an interview, he was very attacking of other products, and I didn't bother with him after that.) I'm also a firm believer that the more serious and straight you play it the more you can get others to buy in when its something silly like their lore. Elden Ring is one of my favorite games because of the lore that supplements my fun. Intense lore is for those who want it and need it and shoudl be ignored by others who don't; but that's just my opinion and that's all I'm trying to add to the conversation.

This is not the kind of place where you need to add qualifiers or pre-apologies for offering your opinions/disagreements. You're good.

Also - all art is subjective so.. yeah, for sure. One could argue that the 4H's mythology isn't awful. But that person has, in my mind, very questionable or superficial tastes. But I also think we need to be clear about something: People like myself, or Alt, or Doc (not to speak for you guys) aren't complaining that the lore -exists and shouldn't-. We're complaining that the lore -is badly written and sucks- and that the 4H have no business thinking that they are writers at all when they are so clearly shit at it.

I know you didn't necessarily mean it this way, but comparing Dark Souls/Elden Ring lore to Mythic Legions lore is bordering on blatantly offensive. Just because both have 'lore' doesn't mean they are in any way beyond that actually comparable.

 

[Dek]

That's certainly possible, actually, yeah. But I think, if they go that route, they're double-dumb because lots of RPG fans buy books for the art.



To Alt's point - I do think we gotta draw a line between 'I am building a huge story and it's so good we might make a movie out of it' and 'I am building myself a reason to make other toys.' Even MOTU, which has a lot of great lore and has had great media come from that lore, was the latter. Because you don't start your toy company thinking that you're fucking JRR Tolkien or Tom Clancy. That would make you a crazy person.



This is not the kind of place where you need to add qualifiers or pre-apologies for offering your opinions/disagreements. You're good.

Also - all art is subjective so.. yeah, for sure. One could argue that the 4H's mythology isn't awful. But that person has, in my mind, very questionable or superficial tastes. But I also think we need to be clear about something: People like myself, or Alt, or Doc (not to speak for you guys) aren't complaining that the lore -exists and shouldn't-. We're complaining that the lore -is badly written and sucks- and that the 4H have no business thinking that they are writers at all when they are so clearly shit at it.

I know you didn't necessarily mean it this way, but comparing Dark Souls/Elden Ring lore to Mythic Legions lore is bordering on blatantly offensive. Just because both have 'lore' doesn't mean they are in any way beyond that actually comparable.

I am NOT suggesting that at all. They are NOT comparable. Elden Ring is something special; 4H lore is comparable to MOTUC. Not bad necessarily, but I'm never gonna watcha video on it. What I mean is I buy into it because they are serious about it, but there are levels to buying in. I'm just saying its more lore than some of my Chinese Import figures or Lossecollector's original IP's. But 4H give me more than I expect, but I also manage expectations about what I think they are capable of in terms of creating a mythology. Elden Ring had a popular fantasy writer and tons of previous games stories and lore behind it, so it better be good; and it was better than good it was freakin' great. I managed expectations and they beat them.

 

[docsilence]

I am new to the board and I will preface this with me saying it is intended to add to the conversation and not be contrarian or argumentative; but I think this is very subjective. I prefer lore like the 4H do (I can't speak on Valaverse; the owner seemed like a dick in an interview, he was very attacking of other products, and I didn't bother with him after that.) I'm also a firm believer that the more serious and straight you play it the more you can get others to buy in when its something silly like their lore. Elden Ring is one of my favorite games because of the lore that supplements my fun. Intense lore is for those who want it and need it and shoudl be ignored by others who don't; but that's just my opinion and that's all I'm trying to add to the conversation.

Honestly the lack of real lore was really appealing to me with ML when I first started collecting. I WANT generic fantasy figures. And I complain about them a lot because I think they make bizarrely bad business decisions, but I still like their stuff because I want lore-less goblins, knights, barbarians, and orcs. Right there with ya.

Also another thing I am curious about and this is not to pile onto the 4H but I am very curious with the way the video game one fell apart that they are allowed to do another Kickstarter. Are you allowed to do more Kickstarters even if you fail to deliver on a previous one? Or since they delivered the figures does it still count as completed even though the game never materialized as advertised? Again not trying to pile on, I am legitimately curious. I have never had bad dealings with the 4H but from around the time of the bird Kickstarter till recently I have pretty much lived under a rock. Life just got really with life, wife and kids, etc. While I still stayed connected to toy news for new releases all of these issues I am just hearing about for the first time now.

Sadly, nothing is stopping someone from doing failed kickstarted after failed kickstarter. There's some game designers who make an entire career out of failed kickstarters. The only thing that stops you is backers turning on you. I lost my shirt on a kickstarter early on and then the same guy somehow got the rights to a line of French miniatures a LOVED and was about to back it when the guy's previous burned backers ratted him out. For all the negative things I've said about their decision to make a video game, at least 4H delivered the action figures they promised from their kickstarter, which I suspect is what most of their backers wanted in the first place.

To Alt's point - I do think we gotta draw a line between 'I am building a huge story and it's so good we might make a movie out of it' and 'I am building myself a reason to make other toys.' Even MOTU, which has a lot of great lore and has had great media come from that lore, was the latter. Because you don't start your toy company thinking that you're fucking JRR Tolkien or Tom Clancy. That would make you a crazy person.

Yep. Part of why I am having fun writing those MOTU file cards is the lore is a fucking mess so I can cherry pick what interests me and build my own story.

 

[Alt]

I like that the characters from 4H have backstory in context. And I recognize nobody is beholden to that.

I just don't think a video game or their own tabletop is a good use of their resources, nor do I think there is really a demand from their existing fan base, nor will it get new eyes on it. I'm assuming that's the goal for any multimedia effort.

Also, even if you had new eyes come in off this tabletop or video game, you're already cut off or at least going uphill in the snow on trying to get these characters that might appeal to you through the story.

It all just comes across like they want to be something they are not set up to be by their own efforts.

But aside from that first brown release, I don't have a horse in the race.

 

[Buttmunch]

Am I understanding the pricing correctly? If I do the $680 set I get 10 figures, the add on accessory packs and a random bag of coins or is it 11 figures and all of that? If it’s 11 it comes out to just over $60 a figure. Not the best value but not terrible if I want all the figures and if the stretch goals add another figure or two to it and additional accessories then the value starts to get better.

There are more bundle options available besides those, some just all the figures and no game stuff. Figures are just $30 each (aside from that SDCC Paladin which is $60).