Four Horsemen Studios Mythic Legions

Mint In Boks said:
Why would a Table Top Gamer Store owner who doesn’t already sell action figures want this game? Why would they think their customers want this game? Why would they give up space that could be used for Pokemon cards or snacks and sodas for the guys who spend all day in the back to buy or other high ticket items in a world where space is increasingly becoming a premium commodity?
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Thing is, 4H probably shouldn't want to be in game stores. That is a *terrible* value proposition for a small gaming company, much less a company that is basically doing this game as a hobby on the side to their actual toy business. Game stores are, on average, not a great place to discover games. Think about the last game store you were in. How many of the games were on a shelf, showing you only their spine? How many game stores are actively running demos of new systems and supplements that come out to get players interested? Will they run this one? If they don't, what would lure an average gamer to pick it up? How will that gamer have heard of this supplement outside of this kickstarter?

And the deal with a game store is they're only going to want to pay 50% of cover cost at most for a 3rd party supplement like this. So that book better cost significantly less than half the cover cost to actually print, or else 4H would basically be losing money just through shipping.

If 4H wants it to be a successful game on its own, like they legit want to expand into that market, there's a lot more than needs to be happening. I think this is basically a toy kickstarter and the game part is more or less a vanity project tacked on. Some folks will buy it, sure, but they don't seem to be treating it like they actually want that to be a new stable revenue stream.
 
fac said:
How many backers would a new, unknown game get on a Kickstarter from a company without a reputation in the field?
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It varies greatly depending on what they've shown and how much they've built up trust within the community beforehand. Like, some are looking at double digit backers. Then you've got Matt Colville who launched his first kickstarter 5e supplement and got nearly 20k backers and over a million dollars, allowing him to start a whole company. But then, he had help in that he had the youtube channel that showed off his design sensibility and he had the recommendation of folks like Matt Mercer who are recognized names within the space.

But 4H isn't a new company, just new to ttrpgs, and certainly they know who some of the folks in the space are. It wouldn't take much to hire known designers to do some work for them or invite some of them to play to show off the product and give it a boost.
 
They're at nearly $500,000 already, I'm sure they can use some of that to cover additional units to get the production numbers to 1,000 or more, even if it doesn't get there on its own.
 
fac said:
They're at nearly $500,000 already, I'm sure they can use some of that to cover additional units to get the production numbers to 1,000 or more, even if it doesn't get there on its own.
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Yeah, I'm not necessarily saying they can't produce what they need to, just saying if the goal is to sidestep into long term ttrpg stuff it's not going to be especially profitable to play to a base that small. Once your core rules are out nearly everything you release after will sell to a smaller subset.
 
I've wanted a full 12-class D&D party for a long time. If I had the space, warmer feelings toward 4H, and the add-on sets were more unique, I'd be all over the full party tier. It's a shame the druid, ranger, paladin, and barb aren't unique figures.

As a former dice goblin, the dice are pretty nice too.

I can't see the TTRPG going anywhere.
 
thewyldman said:
Shipping charges seem a bit high
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They have this disclaimer at the bottom of the campaign page:
NOTE: The shipping "estimates" here on Kickstarter are WAY too high! Unfortunately Kickstarter is not taking into account combined and reduced shipping prices when lots of add-ons are added to a pledge, so the totals they are showing are wildly off! Know that shipping is NOT charged until these items arrive and are ready to go, and once they are ready you will be charged accurate shipping totals based on combined packaging and the significant shipping rate discounts we have in place with carriers!
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fac said:
How many backers would a new, unknown game get on a Kickstarter from a company without a reputation in the field? I genuinely don't know but I think as a starting point it isn't bad, its gets their feet in the door, they can see if it leads anywhere or not.
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Not gonna do a lot of research on this, because it’s a bad faith argument.

The Horsemen are not an unknown company without a reputation, so this is already a moot point.

If someone who enjoys TTRPG’s sees his campaign they can click the “five created” and see three successful toy campaigns, and a failed video game were they at least released what was done and offered refunds for non-physical rewards so clearly they’re trust worthy.

I’d have to assume someone with no toys to bouy the numbers and zero campaigns created saying “guys… you can be a skeleton but you DON’T have to be evil! No gameplay samples and no stretch goals related to the game itself unless you count drop ship dice!” would fail, so yea, compared to them the Horsemen are doing amazing selling 160 books, yes

When I open Kickstarter it suggests two gaming campaigns to me one fully funded by a 20 time game maker, fully funded, that has 200 backers, the other, also fully funded, by a 5 time creator like the Horsemen with 900 backers. So by that measure maybe the Horsemen are doing great selling 160 books without toys, but also maybe they’re doing shitty selling 580 books with the help of toys to prop them up… who knows!

Edit:
Just saw the Monster Pack stretch goal… why break the format? Why is this a $45 “deluxe” item and not a figure and an upgrade kit?

Aside from being rude to stores you think might sell this game (the figures are $30… except this one, so you gotta give just this one it’s own peg!) it’s rude to me personally who just wants another Boarrior and no little vampire goblin! Rude!
 
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Mint In Boks said:
Not gonna do a lot of research on this, because it’s a bad faith argument.

The Horsemen are not an unknown company without a reputation, so this is already a moot point.
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Wasn't meant to be a bad faith argument, just was curious what the expectation might be - 4H have no reputation in the RPG area, I wouldn't have expected a lot of people buying the game itself without much info about it (and it doesn't look like many have), but wasn't sure how much the RPG fans out there are willing to give something new a try without a lot of info.
 
If you want your game in game stores, you do not go to crowdfunding. As a general rule if you go crowdfunding, you're going to get almost all of your actual player base in the kickstarter. Look at every crowdfunded game on Miniature Market etc. The stores can't move those units by setting them on fire. Which isn't to say the GAME isn't successful - just that a crowfunding project is generally a preorder, not a way to build toward future sale. Basically you have two options when launching a TTRPG, both with risks, but it's considered LESS risky to do a crowdfunder because if you fail you know up front instead of when you have mountains of books you can't move.

Case in point: Darrington Press/Critical Role SPECIFICALLY wanted to be carried in Barnes & Noble and major outlets so they did NOT go to crowdfunding even though every time they do crowdfund a project the gods just rain money down on them like snow. They wanted their buyers to go to stores and ask for it for a higher profile release. Good for them! But not everybody has that kind of an audience. And to be fair, 4H might actually have that kind of loyalty from their customers, so it could've gone either way with them.

Just out of curiosity I looked up some 5e projects I've backed over the years on Kickstarter to see how many backers they got. I back too many fucking games, guys. But I will say of these, they're all gorgeous goddamned books with good stuff to pull from for your games if you're looking for some new stuff:
  • Chapelwick (5e horror): 3071
  • Humblewood expansion (indie company but popular, cozy 5e): 5400
  • Beyond the Woods (Irish folklore 5e): 2170
  • Zamanora (Balkan/Slavic 5e): 3290
  • Secret World expansion (modern world 53): 894, original campaign got just under 2,000 and generally expansions get about half
  • Planet of the Apes RPG (not 5e, WHY did I BUY THIS???): 1971
  • The End of Everything (fantasy apocalyptic 5e, really cool small one-person creative team): 929
  • Kingsmouth (Cosmic horror 5e): 1342
  • Cowboy Bebop (not 5e): 4900
  • Dragonbane (a 5e COMPETITOR, unique system): 11,684 and they FUCKING DESERVE IT. Free League does not come to fuck around
  • Bloodpunk (steampunk/vampire 5e): 3992
  • Planegea (prehistoric 5e, cavemen and dinosaurs): 3500ish
  • Old Gods of Appalachia (original, not counting expansions, PBTA not 5e): Jesus Christ 15,064!!!!
  • And for good measure, Avatar the Last Airbender (I believe this is also PBTA not 5e): 81,567!!!!!!!!!
Went to backerkit but the numbers need more digging and I don't have the time to muck around on that site (Kickstarter isn't perfect but Backerkit requires like, Voodoo to navigate).

I will say though "our guy is going to make the game himself" is some top tier overconfidence. Developing a game is HARD, balancing it is harder, and selling it to the most minutiae-oriented, belligerent fanbase in the world is harder still. First thing I would've done if I had 4H money for a kickstarter was look to see if someone like Teos Abadea, Dan Dillon, someone with track record was available as a consultant and thrown some money at them to get it right. Especially because honestly, I could run a Mythoss game on my own with books I own in like, 24 hours, so you gotta do something special to make the game worth buying, cos if you don't, any mid-skilled DM could just do it with existing materials.

But in the end of the day, I am fully convinced they'll be happy if the game sells but mostly this is marketing for toys. Which is fine. They make pretty action figures. I like 'em. I'm gonna buy a couple of them if they're available without the game!

I'm having trouble parsing out how the fuck to buy the minis, but I might scoop up a handful of those if I can figure out what they're made out of. I'm swearing off 3D printed minis but I wouldn't hate painting up a few of theirs if they're not too expensive.
 
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BODVAR arrived today with little warning!

First observation, he’s heavy. Think Marvel Select Juggernaut. But with a ton more articulation. Most of which is very tight, some of which may require heat to loosen (left hind ankle for sure on my copy). He’s not easy to handle, as a lot of his fur sculpt is pointy and tough on my baby soft hands. Popping the front paws off was not super easy, but getting the alternate paws on seemed more difficult. The head pops off so you can take the bridle off, and the neck can come off to swap the curved neck for when he stands. There’s a calm head and a roaring head. The saddle can come off when you unpeg it under the buckle on the left side. Standing on two legs, he’s about a foot tall. I haven’t given him a rider yet. Not sure who. I don’t think he’ll go with my MotU tributes. I can’t remember if I ordered a barbarian from his wave. This was POed when it went up, like 2-3 years ago? I still have a handful of open POs at StoreHorsemen. I can’t say I’m disappointed by the bear, though I can’t remember what I paid to factor into my satisfaction.
 
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I bought Attlus and Bodvar from 4H, and since they started shipping out I have received 7 (I counted) emails from 4H. None of them about my purchase shipping. That is super annoying to me. I understand it's a waiting game, but Damn. Ship my product before trying to sell me on two others.

Rant over. Thank you for letting me vent.
 
Dek said:
I bought Attlus and Bodvar from 4H, and since they started shipping out I have received 7 (I counted) emails from 4H. None of them about my purchase shipping. That is super annoying to me. I understand it's a waiting game, but Damn. Ship my product before trying to sell me on two others.

Rant over. Thank you for letting me vent.
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No problem. We’ll itemize your bill, and send it out to you. We can work out a payment plan, whereby you can arrange payments to everyone on the thread.
 
That's fine, but I shoudl warn you I am in crippling debt and the entirety of my check is garnished by the government. But we'll figure it out.
 
This is definitely a dangerous place for anyone with a plastic addiction and crippling debt - tread carefully Dek!
 
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