Super 7 TMNT figures

[Justice]

April in 2003 wore baggy khakis and a belly shirt. I think fans just wanting the main cast but who also aren't -actually- fans of that particular cartoon probably wouldn't even recognize her on a shelf as April. Maybe if they did the later-series costume she wore which was yellow but looked more like a superhero outfit....?

And no - no Bebop or Rocksteady. They were replaced with unique characters for this one.

Just looked her up. They could have at LEAST made that belly shirt yellow and I think the design would have been ok.

 

[Damien]

Meanwhile, some people will buy TMNT stuff because it's TMNT stuff. Their display will have old posters, trading cards, food products, boxes of band aids, and so on. Their rubric for reviewing S7 Ultimates doesn't come from an understanding of modern articulated action figures, but more the hype of seeing their property get serviced. They aren't really going to pose the figure a lot or take complicated photos. It's gonna sit on a shelf next to a box of TMNT cereal and a signed picture of Rob Paulsen.

Those people certainly exist, but here's the problem with them: They TEND to be in-box collectors for action figures (because they don't care about the action figurey-ness), and they're actually the prime market for ReAction, NOT Ultimates. Ultimates figures are pretty dedicated, in theory if not in execution, to serving the interests of people that collect action figures specifically. No rando that just wants a Raphael trinket is going to buy a 55 dollar action figure with a hundred different accessories and parts that they don't even know how to use.

It's the same reason video game figures don't seem to sell well to people that just really like video games. Those people don't know anything about action figures or how to 'deal' with them, as it were.

So I'd agree that ReAction is definitely for the memorabilia collectors. They require almost nothing of the people buying them. They're 'easy' - for lack of a better term. But I don't think that's what S7 has ever had in mind for Ultimates. In fact, I'd argue Ultimates is S7's attempt to capture a totally different market than the memorabilia trinket collectors.

 

[Misfit]

Ultimates are definitely for the Gen X/Millennial crowd that grew up consuming action figures and never left the hobby. At its core, I think the line is supposed to take old figures from the past, scale them up, add some paint and more accessories, and "modernize" the articulation in a homogenous manner. It's not a strategy I've ever had an issue with even if I'd personally like more articulation out of my figures and, in the case of TMNT where it's basically a copycat line, a little more creativity out of these so-called reimaginings. I've just always faulted them for the price and execution. If you're going to charge me double what NECA charges for a turtle then your turtle damn well better look like it should cost double. Often times it looks cheaper.

I sometimes wonder what Super7 would look like today if it didn't get into TMNT when it did. Had Playmates successfully kept everyone out would the company even exist today? I feel like popularity of this line really catapulted them and probably helped move figures in other licenses initially. It's easy to forget that they had three waves of TMNT solicited, plus other licenses, before that first wave started to arrive in the hands of collectors. The quality wasn't great with wave one, but I think there was still a lot of optimism and the secondary market was hot with FOMO purchases which really helped juice the sales of the next few waves. Just the excitement generated by that initial wave probably helped them achieve the sales they got for the first 6-7 waves before people started to realize that this company wasn't very good at making figures. It was between the release of waves 6 and 8 (7 was delayed and we just got it this year) that we started to see the steep discounts and mark-downs on this stuff and the company's reputation was cemented.

 

[Justice]

The first thing that really put Super 7 on the map was when they got the MOTU license from Mattel and were able to continue the very popular MOTUC line. I had never heard of them prior to that and I believe those were the first fully articulated action figures they had made.

The TMNT timing was probably good and they were able to pivot to that upon losing the MOTU license. Thundercats also helped I'm sure.

 

[Misfit]

Yes, that was them testing the waters. I think a lot of those were Mattel molds too (the early ThunderCats may have been too?), if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure what their first in-house figure was (though the first several waves of TMNT were sculpted and designed by Four Horsemen so some might not consider them in-house), but seems like MOTU got their name out there and then TMNT really put them on the map.

 

[Damien]

I'm just part-way into the Now You Know with Veeberoni and Kyle Wlodyga (very sad to hear that Kyle is applying for unemployment - hope he finds gainful work soon), and I still just... hate the argument being used for upping the articulation on the new Turtles.
To be clear; I'm not saying this isn't WHY Kyle/Super7 did it. I'm saying it's a bad, nonsense reason.

The whole 'people that were Turtles fans in 2003 were used to better articulation, so these had to be better articulated to appease those people' thing is stupid as fuck. First of all, has he ever held an actual Playmates Turtle from 2003? The articulation was -basically the same- as it was in '88.
Then he mentioned other lines that existed in 2003 - like Legends and stuff and kind of using that as an excuse, which I think is already a reach. But if we allow that 2003 Turtles existed at the same time as Marvel Legends and therefore new 2003 Turtles need to have that level of articulation...... does anyone want to tell him that G.I. Joe existed at the same time as the '88 line? So by the exact same logic, the vintage-inspired figures should have had better articulation because G.I. Joes existed and had been around for 5 fucking years when the first Ninja Turtle was ever sold.

Like... I'm fully in favor of adding articulation to the S7 model. Go for it. It's a good idea. But the reasoning -behind- the good idea is actually kind of silly as fuck.

If you're going to charge me double what NECA charges for a turtle then your turtle damn well better look like it should cost double. Often times it looks cheaper.

Yup. Super7's business model fails because Brian Flynn thinks his shit doesn't stink. That's the long and short of it. His head is too far up his own ass and he's surrounded by glad-handing ass-kissers that tell him how amazing everything he does is.

I sometimes wonder what Super7 would look like today if it didn't get into TMNT when it did. Had Playmates successfully kept everyone out would the company even exist today? I feel like popularity of this line really catapulted them and probably helped move figures in other licenses initially. It's easy to forget that they had three waves of TMNT solicited, plus other licenses, before that first wave started to arrive in the hands of collectors. The quality wasn't great with wave one, but I think there was still a lot of optimism and the secondary market was hot with FOMO purchases which really helped juice the sales of the next few waves. Just the excitement generated by that initial wave probably helped them achieve the sales they got for the first 6-7 waves before people started to realize that this company wasn't very good at making figures. It was between the release of waves 6 and 8 (7 was delayed and we just got it this year) that we started to see the steep discounts and mark-downs on this stuff and the company's reputation was cemented.

I think this is a fair assessment. Super7 would probably still be a pile of nobodies making shit 12 people are buying if it weren't for Ultimates. Maybe not TMNT specifically. As Justice pointed out - continuing the MOTUC stuff really cemented them as a contender for collector dollars, and even allowed them to get into TMNT. But also, fair to point out, if TMNT hadn't been there to catch them when Mattel pulled the MOTU license, I think Super7 would have crashed and burned pretty monumentally.

 

[Misfit]

I'm just part-way into the Now You Know with Veeberoni and Kyle Wlodyga (very sad to hear that Kyle is applying for unemployment - hope he finds gainful work soon), and I still just... hate the argument being used for upping the articulation on the new Turtles.
To be clear; I'm not saying this isn't WHY Kyle/Super7 did it. I'm saying it's a bad, nonsense reason.

The whole 'people that were Turtles fans in 2003 were used to better articulation, so these had to be better articulated to appease those people' thing is stupid as fuck. First of all, has he ever held an actual Playmates Turtle from 2003? The articulation was -basically the same- as it was in '88.
Then he mentioned other lines that existed in 2003 - like Legends and stuff and kind of using that as an excuse, which I think is already a reach. But if we allow that 2003 Turtles existed at the same time as Marvel Legends and therefore new 2003 Turtles need to have that level of articulation...... does anyone want to tell him that G.I. Joe existed at the same time as the '88 line? So by the exact same logic, the vintage-inspired figures should have had better articulation because G.I. Joes existed and had been around for 5 fucking years when the first Ninja Turtle was ever sold.

Like... I'm fully in favor of adding articulation to the S7 model. Go for it. It's a good idea. But the reasoning -behind- the good idea is actually kind of silly as fuck.

I agree on the articulation theory, but I also think he's not articulating the point he wants to make. I listened to the interview as well and rolled my eyes pretty hard when he started on that, but after listening to it, I think what he is trying to get at is that there are collectors who have nostalgia for the old Kenner/Playmates/Mattel/etc. form factors. And being around Flynn (and probably Josh) might even have Kyle convinced that a lot of Gen X and elder millennials types are happy with that shit and want everything to be MOTU Origins while he views his generation (and I'm guessing he's a younger millennial) as having moved on quickly. His introduction to figures sounds like it was Bandai Power Rangers, which while crude by today's standards, was way more articulated than what other companies were putting out in the 80s and early 90s. And if that's the argument he had to put forth to finally get Super7 to budge then whatever, at least they finally listened to someone. In reality, I do think this is a hobby where the majority of folks who have been in it have enjoyed the evolution and don't really want to go back. Yeah, we can be goaded into making a purchase out of pure nostalgia and there are certainly some collectors who just want vintage-like stuff, but they're the minority.

And regarding that interview as a whole, it was kind of nice to hear Kyle speaks more for himself than usual, though anyone hoping for him to go scorched earth on Super7 was probably let down. He definitely took the high road, though I don't blame him since this is a relatively small industry and if he wants to stay in it he probably can't dump on his former employer, even if the rest of the toy world laughs at Super7. Maybe with some distance from it all he'll be more willing to voice any frustrations he might have had making his voice heard at that company. Or maybe he really has nothing bad to say.

 

[Justice]

It just occured to me that when Super 7 goes out of business or drops Ultimates altogether, maybe Neca can get the 2003 license...

 

[AgentHemlock]

I've been listening to Unparalleled's stream with DGDX who said (paraphrasing) that he'd pay attention to the 2003 Turtles when NECA does them. 100% meant nothing about the future in the context but it did get me thinking about S7's licenses going up for grabs if they do go belly up. A NECA Thundercats would be incredible but I dunno if they'd want to retread all that ground, or if Thundercats collectors would be up for buying again, even if the figures were superior and cheaper. But 2003 TMNT for sure would get people.

DGDX also insinuated Mirage and 2012 fans will be eating good this SDCC....

 

[Justice]

I 100% would rebuy Thundercats if Neca made them, at least the core Cats and Mutants. They'd look great displayed with the Thundertank and Lair.

 

[Damien]

As someone that hasn't bought into S7's TCats at all, I'd be up for seeing them from NECA. I don't necessarily think NECA always cranks out winners or anything, but they definitely have a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY better track record than Super7. I'd be more excited, if S7 died the death it deserves, in the potential for NECA to work out a deal with Viacom and Nick to start doing more direct vintage toy stuff. SOMEONE needs to give me a goddamn modern articulation King Lionheart before I fucking die.

I agree on the articulation theory, but I also think he's not articulating the point he wants to make. I listened to the interview as well and rolled my eyes pretty hard when he started on that, but after listening to it, I think what he is trying to get at is that there are collectors who have nostalgia for the old Kenner/Playmates/Mattel/etc. form factors. And being around Flynn (and probably Josh) might even have Kyle convinced that a lot of Gen X and elder millennials types are happy with that shit and want everything to be MOTU Origins while he views his generation (and I'm guessing he's a younger millennial) as having moved on quickly.

Even if that's what he meant - that's still really dumb. Because, again, it's very clear from paying any attention to collectors at all, that the collector that just wants that 5poa ReAction style of figure aren't the target for any TMNT line. Those collectors don't tend to have tons of nostalgia for Turtles, because most of those collectors are '70s kids, not '80s kids. And those collectors are also, so it would seem, a vanishingly small percentage of collectors overall. It also presupposes that a specific generation of collector is somehow magically immune to changing toy technology unlike any other generation of collector. It's just fucking stupid no matter what he meant.

Literally - the same generation that he'd be saying doesn't need articulation in the line redoing the '88 Turtles toys is collecting the super articulated action figures based on the '87 cartoon from NECA. You'd have to be a dipshit.......

In reality, I do think this is a hobby where the majority of folks who have been in it have enjoyed the evolution and don't really want to go back.

Exactly. This whole 'THIS generation likes this type of articulation' is just the dumbest possible explanation for why Super7 insists on making sub-par action figures to please Brian Flynn's specific and personal tastes, by projecting those tastes onto basically anyone in his age group. Fuck that.

And regarding that interview as a whole, it was kind of nice to hear Kyle speaks more for himself than usual, though anyone hoping for him to go scorched earth on Super7 was probably let down. He definitely took the high road, though I don't blame him since this is a relatively small industry and if he wants to stay in it he probably can't dump on his former employer, even if the rest of the toy world laughs at Super7. Maybe with some distance from it all he'll be more willing to voice any frustrations he might have had making his voice heard at that company. Or maybe he really has nothing bad to say.

Yeah - anyone thinking Kyle was gonna pop on any vidcast to torch Super7 is a big ol' dummy. Don't get me wrong, it would have been hilarious and somewhat gratifying. But c'mon. It was definitely never going to happen. Kyle is still a professional that, even if he never works at Super7 ever again, would presumably like to be able to continue to work in the industry. And it's not a big enough industry to burn bridges without a really damn good reason.

It'll be interesting to see where Kyle goes and what projects he works on now. Even if for no other reason than to figure out what was 'him' in those designs and what was mandated stuff from Super7 or even the licensor. Maybe NECA will snap him up, since he's got so much Turtle experience and that's one of NECA's most important ongoing brands.

 

[PantherCult]

As someone who has been all in on S7 Thundercats I would 100% skip a NECA Line unless it was a haracter Super7 didnt get to.

For as much shit as people give Super7 for poor quality I personally have had far more breakage with Neca figures than with S7 Ultimates.

 

[Misfit]

As someone that hasn't bought into S7's TCats at all, I'd be up for seeing them from NECA. I don't necessarily think NECA always cranks out winners or anything, but they definitely have a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY better track record than Super7. I'd be more excited, if S7 died the death it deserves, in the potential for NECA to work out a deal with Viacom and Nick to start doing more direct vintage toy stuff. SOMEONE needs to give me a goddamn modern articulation King Lionheart before I fucking die.



Even if that's what he meant - that's still really dumb. Because, again, it's very clear from paying any attention to collectors at all, that the collector that just wants that 5poa ReAction style of figure aren't the target for any TMNT line. Those collectors don't tend to have tons of nostalgia for Turtles, because most of those collectors are '70s kids, not '80s kids. And those collectors are also, so it would seem, a vanishingly small percentage of collectors overall. It also presupposes that a specific generation of collector is somehow magically immune to changing toy technology unlike any other generation of collector. It's just fucking stupid no matter what he meant.

Literally - the same generation that he'd be saying doesn't need articulation in the line redoing the '88 Turtles toys is collecting the super articulated action figures based on the '87 cartoon from NECA. You'd have to be a dipshit.......



Exactly. This whole 'THIS generation likes this type of articulation' is just the dumbest possible explanation for why Super7 insists on making sub-par action figures to please Brian Flynn's specific and personal tastes, by projecting those tastes onto basically anyone in his age group. Fuck that.



Yeah - anyone thinking Kyle was gonna pop on any vidcast to torch Super7 is a big ol' dummy. Don't get me wrong, it would have been hilarious and somewhat gratifying. But c'mon. It was definitely never going to happen. Kyle is still a professional that, even if he never works at Super7 ever again, would presumably like to be able to continue to work in the industry. And it's not a big enough industry to burn bridges without a really damn good reason.

It'll be interesting to see where Kyle goes and what projects he works on now. Even if for no other reason than to figure out what was 'him' in those designs and what was mandated stuff from Super7 or even the licensor. Maybe NECA will snap him up, since he's got so much Turtle experience and that's one of NECA's most important ongoing brands.

I do agree it’s a dumb and wrong mind set, but I think when Kyle talks about that straw man older collector he’s not really talking about the actual market, but Brian, and he’s essentially covering for him. Would have been nice if Veebs offered some pushback to see if he’d elaborate more as I’m pretty sure he doesn’t fall into the description Kyle offered. How long has Super7 been doing this? It’s pretty damn incredible it took this long to either convince Brian to do something as basic as double elbows or the authority was truly taken from him.

NECA could probably do decent ThunderCats, though I wonder if they would want to give them a Gargoyles makeover and if the fanbase would want that? Seems like Mattel would be a good landing spot, though it looks like that crossover series basically doubles as a ThunderCats Origins line and that might be as far as they want to go. Maybe Mondo wants to do the 2000s series to pair with 200x MOTU? I don’t know if there’s enough interest there though for an $85+ toy line.

 

[Damien]

As someone who has been all in on S7 Thundercats I would 100% skip a NECA Line unless it was a haracter Super7 didnt get to.

For as much shit as people give Super7 for poor quality I personally have had far more breakage with Neca figures than with S7 Ultimates.

I think almost anyone that went hard on S7 ThunderCats is just not going to be interested in any other company's versions anyway. Whatever I think of the quality of them, or Super7 as a company, that's a collection with some breadth to it already. It'll become similar to the MOTUC/Masterverse issue where people are like 'what's the point in starting over when I'm unlikely to ever get a collection this complete ever again?'
Although, I guess it's fair to say, NECA has built up a lot of goodwill for creating robust collections thanks to stuff like Turtles, Aliens, and Predator. They've even gone pretty hard with fuckin' Gremlins of all things. But then, I've also got a Jon Bon Jovi figure with no Richie Sambora, so clearly NECA hates me personally.

For breakage - I've had more breakage with NECA than S7. But I've had significantly more just shit-quality figures from S7 than I've had bad quality and breakages combined from NECA. NECA has also made notable improvements in quality control, while S7 has done literally nothing to improve quality control, it would seem. That's me being objective here, because I'm actually not the biggest NECA fan around, either.

So yeah, I'd trust NECA more than S7 to put out a really quality product worth owning, and almost certainly for way less money. But still, they're not likely to do anything you don't already have from S7, at least for the first several years. And, bleak as it may be to point out, I think the kind of collector that wants a big ThunderCats collection is probably of an age where re-starting a collection in the hopes that it will be just as good as what they currently have 6-8 years from now is a tough sell.

I do agree it’s a dumb and wrong mind set, but I think when Kyle talks about that straw man older collector he’s not really talking about the actual market, but Brian, and he’s essentially covering for him. Would have been nice if Veebs offered some pushback to see if he’d elaborate more as I’m pretty sure he doesn’t fall into the description Kyle offered. How long has Super7 been doing this? It’s pretty damn incredible it took this long to either convince Brian to do something as basic as double elbows or the authority was truly taken from him.

Oh yeah, it was probably all a smokescreen for 'I need to continue sweeping for Brian's shitty opinions and personal tastes because he thinks he represents all of us.' And yeah, more evidence of Veebs just being there for clout because he doesn't even do the gentle pushback that might result in some extra information without actually being rude or speaking out of turn. Just no interest.

My understanding is the decision-making was partly taken away from Brian and certain edicts came down to modernize the business model. I think some people would be surprised how much investors -can- be plugged in to socials and reviews. Obviously if they're making money they don't give a shit. But if you're fucking with their nut, they start paying attention to what you might be doing wrong real quick.

NECA could probably do decent ThunderCats, though I wonder if they would want to give them a Gargoyles makeover and if the fanbase would want that? Seems like Mattel would be a good landing spot, though it looks like that crossover series basically doubles as a ThunderCats Origins line and that might be as far as they want to go. Maybe Mondo wants to do the 2000s series to pair with 200x MOTU? I don’t know if there’s enough interest there though for an $85+ toy line.

My heart wants to say no one wants 85 dollar 6" ThunderCats. But I'm consistently surprised by how much money toy collectors will spend on niche properties and products. I honestly cannot believe the 12" Mondo stuff sells as well as it does. For figures that barely articulate and cost a fortune AND take up a ton of space? It's genuinely surprising to me that they do as well as they do. So what do I know.

Mattel wouldn't be doing TCats in Origins style if they didn't think the brand had legs. So I could see them being interested in making their own Origins and 'Masterverse'-style figures. In fact, they may already be working on that.

 

[PantherCult]

A 'Masterverse style' run of Thundercats from Mattel might be tempting. Especially if they sprinkled 'new' stuff in with the old the way Masterverse has done. I have a complete collection of MOTUC but have still bought almost all of the Masterverse figures because the buy in price point was low and there were some new characters and different looks sprinkled in. I couldn't rule out being temted by that with Thundercats - especially if they introduced some of the new characters from the recent comics.