Star Wars Movie and Streaming Series Discussion

[TheSameIdiot]

Totally. It really just comes down to the material. Book of Boba Fett, for instance. Boba worked because the mystery was part of his character. The more we knew, the less interesting he became. Whereas one of the reasons why I loved Andor was that we got to know about Cassian more. He was a blank slate just like Boba, but the filling in of the gaps actually helped me appreciate him more, and they still managed to explain who he is and where he came from without taking away the nuance and gray area.

Are we sure it isn't as simple as Book of Boba Fett was a Bad Show and Andor was a Good Show?

The same goes for fleshing out Darth/Anakin through the prequels. Fleshing him out wasn't the issue; it's that the story was bad. While I'm an ROTS defender, I hate Eps I and II.

My new mantra with franchise IP is "why does this exist?" Does it exist to sell another ticket, or for an actual storytelling reason? I didn't like Thunderbolts, but you can clearly point to the reason it existed (telling a superhero story about mental health).

Unfortunately, I think the MCU is so down and out that they need to answer two questions:
1) why does it exist?
2) is this good?

For me, Thunderbolts checked the first box but not the second. I think Star Wars needs to start asking itself the same questions.

As much as I love Star Wars, Marvel, etc etc etc, in my heart I wish we had more room in our consumer/creative society for stories THAT FUCKING END. It's okay to tell a whole story!

Amen. Imagine how brave it would've been for Disney to end the MCU with Endgame.

I'm not so foolish to think that they'd stop the money train there. They could've started the MCU 2.0 with the X-Men (or Shang-Chi and the current crop). It would've been a lot better than shoehorning Ant-Man, Sam Cap, and other legacy characters into bad in-between stories.

 

[AceofKnaves]

I guess I’m the only one who like Book of Boba Fett. Nah, scratch that: I LOVE it, *except* for the Mandalorian episodes squished inside it. It’s probably my favorite D+ SW offering other than Andor. Boba Fett (OT Boba Fett that is) has always been my #2 favorite SW character (after OT Darth Vader specifically, NOT PT Anakin Skywalker who I utterly despise), and seeing him find community and purpose and even a soul was incredibly moving for me. I can’t make it through the Tusken sections without breaking down. I guess I just really relate to what he’s going through and what he’s trying to do. And I really think Tem Morrison does a fantastic job. I just wish it was more its own thing and not so tied to the whole Mando soap opera.

 

[Ru1977]

I guess I’m the only one who like Book of Boba Fett. Nah, scratch that: I LOVE it,

I doubt it. Actually, my son liked it!

*except* for the Mandalorian episodes squished inside it.

That is funny since some people only liked those.

It’s probably my favorite D+ SW offering other than Andor

With all sincerity, I envy you. I wanted to like this show so very badly.

seeing him find community and purpose and even a soul was incredibly moving for me

Right, the themes and concepts aren't bad, just severely underbaked to me.

the Tusken sections

Yes, those are the best parts. The train heist was by far the best sequence of the whole thing. I just... Boba on this show is really not a great crimelord mind, or even a savvy underworld type since he assumes the people he just ripped off are telling the truth about "it was those other guys".

Tem Morrison does a fantastic job.

I can agree here. The writing is really my issue. I don't even hate the moped gang.

I just wish it was more its own thing and not so tied to the whole Mando soap opera

Same. Either totally its own thing, or properly integrated. And in the "it's kinda my fault because of the expectations I brought with me", I also did expect to see more eras of his life in a show called Book Of. Felt like it would be a real mother of a chronicling.

 

[docsilence]

Definitely not a good thing but... and I know is shitty and naive, but there is a very very small part of me that is envious? Not the bullying part but that people are reading you AND want more, heh.

Nah, not naive at all--like I'd never publicly complain about it because having people demand more story is better than having no one demand any story. But I did send the messages to a couple of author friends and said "do they realize how uncomfortable a position this puts an author in?"

And I think that's why I respect the hell out of Gilroy for making sure if he cared how a character's story ended, he ENDED it. He knows Star Wars well enough to know someone will fill in the gaps he doesn't fill himself (you know there will be Kleya spinoffs somewhere down the line, but he made damned sure we knew about her and Luthens' origins).

I also think that's why Rogue one is my favorite non-Original Trilogy Star Wars films. Good luck making a sequel to a literal suicide mission. It is a finite loop, a single moment in time, one moment among an infinite number of stories told among the stars.

I will say as much as I want stories to end, I'll eat my hat for one reason: after the sequel trilogy I was so disappointed I said, quietly, to many friends, I hope they never make another goddamn Star Wars movie again. Put it back on the shelf and don't touch the IP for 30 years. They weren't responsible driving the car. But since then we get Andor and Mandalorian and Visions and Bad Batch and Acolyte and Skeleton Crew and I'm enjoying the hell out of what they've done since the sequels. So rather than an end, I just wanted them to pilot the starship more responsibly, and for the most part, I think they have.

 

[Ru1977]

Nah, not naive at all--like I'd never publicly complain about it because having people demand more story is better than having no one demand any story

Thank you..and heh, right. "Next time you write a book, could you simply not?"

 

[docsilence]

Thank you..and heh, right. "Next time you write a book, could you simply not?"

That's very close to an EXACT goodreads review a friend of mine got last month. He's still rocked by it. I'm like: dude, this is why the first time you write a book you NEVER go back to Goodreads, it's like voluntarily hanging out with bullies.

 

[Ru1977]

I will definitely not go to Goodreads ...

 

[Ru1977]

On the subject of BOBF, believe it or not, I was defending that show for the first three weeks on a Fett costuming forum. If you want to see HATE for nerd stuff, that was intense. The show never had a chance because in their eyes, the black costume is an abomination. I just stopped going there even before I decided I didn't like the show either.

 

[docsilence]

They were mad at the costume? The black robe thing that he wore early in the series? I had some issues with the story structure and felt like it didn't know what it wanted to be, but I actually liked the robe/armor combo - it felt very sort of lost-ronin kind of vibe to me. I love that action figure.

 

[Ru1977]

They were mad at the costume?

Yes.

The black robe thing that he wore early in the series?

All of it. Basically, it started out great because he had the grey flight suit and the rotj armor etc, but as soon as he changed to the tusken robes, that was bullshit. He black samurai kinda clothing with the armor? Utter trash. The black flight suit with the buttcape? Anyone who likes that should be set on fire with it. But it did get the ESB and the ROTJ factions to find common ground at least.

had some issues with the story structure and felt like it didn't know what it wanted to be,

Definitely. The word I always use is meandering. When Favreau called it the star wars Godfather, I laughed.

I actually liked the robe/armor combo - it felt very sort of lost-ronin kind of vibe to me. I love that action figure.

Same here! Brief history, but I did a replica costume of the ROTJSE suit (basically the ROTJ costume with the ESB helmet) in 1999 and that was my costume for years. When Boba showed up in Mandalorian with the black robes, I was so into that. Then the next episode when he has the black vest and his armor is all cleaned up, mostly, my wife said "you should do that to yours." And she had no idea what that really meant but yeah, I went to town doing the clothing, and ultimately did an amalgam with the BOBF jetpack and belt, The Believer clothing and rifle, ROTJ armor. Anyway, I love the black. I prefer the samurai pants one on Mandalorian though

 

[Damien]

So ultimately it depends on what story they're telling, why they're telling it, what they hope to accomplish with said story, and who is the one telling it.

Absolutely. But that's to my point that if a story diminishes a different story -- the question of 'what does this accomplish?' becomes SO much more relevant because it needs to outweigh the negatives of what you may be doing to the related narratives.

Also agree about Phasma. That would have a lot of potential to make an interesting story.

As much as I love Star Wars, Marvel, etc etc etc, in my heart I wish we had more room in our consumer/creative society for stories THAT FUCKING END. It's okay to tell a whole story! Writers should be allowed to do that. But the demands of an IP insist that you constantly throw coal into the engine to keep audiences that refuse to let go coming back.

10000%
But also, I think the big problem isn't really 'furthering the IP' - it's slavish devotion to one specific element of the IP. If we could let the Skywalkers just fuck all the way off into a distant sun for a little while, you could tell Star Wars stories that end. If everything doesn't have to loop back around, and some things can just exist on their own within that world, you can have endings. Dragonlance books are all related by a shared setting, but most of them have fucking endings. The Elven Nations trilogy ties in to events that take place elsewhere - it has ramifications across the setting. But it is also its own self-contained story that ends. Star Wars could do this with better people in charge that care more about enlisting good writers to tell good stories. Instead they have people that just want to get the fastest team together to crank out a story that leads to the next story. Marvel, of course, DEEPLY suffers from the same problem.

Definitely not a good thing but... and I know is shitty and naive, but there is a very very small part of me that is envious? Not the bullying part but that people are reading you AND want more, heh.

Right? Like, in my heart of hearts I do understand that it sucks. I argue the same thing against SoIaF fans that shit all over Martin. Maybe he just doesn't want to write GoT anymore? He doesn't OWE you more books. Let the old man write whatever he wants. GoT is some of his worst work anyway, to be honest (I say, as a big GoT fan). But still, there's something to be said for having dedicated fans that really like what you've done. That's gotta be a nice feeling on some level, for sure.

 

[docsilence]

I also say I want stories to end while absolutely just devouring the last few Star Wars spinoff shows/prequels etc., so I'm guilty of what I'm also tired of. I think that's why I appreciate how contained Skeleton Crew and Andor were (yeah, Andor's part of the bigger picture, but it resolves a LOT and does not demand you know forty years of history to understand it... I keep saying you could tell someone fresh to planet Earth it's a spy series bout space fascists and space rebels and I think it makes sense). Kinda split the difference. Give 'em more! But don't make it like Charlie' conspiracy board in Always Sunny.

And gawd, I'll never give George a hard time. He achieved the author dream, he made fuck-off money, and he owes nobody NOTHING. Of course he's also why I have to market my book series as "self contained" without cliffhangers, because quite literally an entire generation of fantasy readers now refuse to buy books that are part of a series until the series is finished and that means a LOT of authors get dropped by their publishers after book 1 sales flag. (Well, George and Rothfuss, they both kinda helped with that.) But Stephen King wrote Misery for a reason, and as I said, as I NOBODY author, even I'm like: that's one bad day away from being a documentary.

 

[Damien]

I also say I want stories to end while absolutely just devouring the last few Star Wars spinoff shows/prequels etc., so I'm guilty of what I'm also tired of. I think that's why I appreciate how contained Skeleton Crew and Andor were (yeah, Andor's part of the bigger picture, but it resolves a LOT and does not demand you know forty years of history to understand it... I keep saying you could tell someone fresh to planet Earth it's a spy series bout space fascists and space rebels and I think it makes sense). Kinda split the difference. Give 'em more! But don't make it like Charlie' conspiracy board in Always Sunny.

I mean... maybe we're all a little hypocritical. But I do think there's a balance. It's okay for things to tie into other things. I don't think that's ever been the problem. I've watched plenty of TV shows that lasted years and years, which isn't really all that different from a bunch of movies all playing off the last one and all that. But I think it's the proliferation that's the problem. It's starting to feel like now there are NO narratives that end. Even fucking John Wick can't just be OVER.

 

[Ru1977]

Heh I watched John Wick and really enjoyed it, never tried the sequels.

 

[Schizm]

You can now enjoy the latest spin-off!

I agree with what you all are saying with two caveats:
- Martin has promised another book for years, giving endless nothing updates - he's feeding that particular beast all on his own so I do think he should finish it. I have never read any of his stuff and don't plan to, but my theory is the book is done and locked in a vault to be released one year after his death so he doesn't have to listen to what ANYONE thinks.
- "Star Wars" and "Marvel" are sagas - the setting and set-up are bigger than the individual products at this point, so individual entries into those sagas (series, movies, comics) should close the loop on themselves, but wanting more from the franchise itself I think is great when it's a healthy relationship (both ways). I also really like what Tom Bissell said Tony Gilroy said about leaving more toys in the toy box after you're done. When you are working in/on a saga story, closing the loop doesn't mean destroying everything, just completing *a* story.