Star Wars Black Series

JakeEkiss said:
Manny Jacinto was done so dirty by that show. Honestly that pisses me off more than them icing Carrie-Anne Moss (who I think would have been better in the Vernestra role). Manny was *ready* to play a badass, smooth, morally weird Sith guy. Every time he's on screen I want to know more about his deal and I was let down every time.
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Oh yeah. It's infuriating.
 
Schizm said:
But swap that pretty face with Steve Buscemi and it's a whole different story.

It's also interesting that the lasting draw/legacy of a show designed around two powerful female characters is almost entirely about the male side character.
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I have to assume you're talking about the broader fandom because I don't think anybody here is really saying either of those things.

I think every actor on that show was wasted because none of them were given a conflict, narrative, or dialog that I thought was up to their collective talents.
 
JakeEkiss said:
They saved so much for later that I didn't know why I was supposed to care about what was happening now.
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This is maybe the best description of The Acolyte I have ever read. I still have no idea why the twins matter at all.

Schizm said:
But swap that pretty face with Steve Buscemi and it's a whole different story.
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I don't think that's true, necessarily. I think there's a tendency to write the bad boys and serial murderers to be more interesting/fun characters. Of all the characters in Buffy, I think Spike is probably the only interesting one (I am admittedly not a fan of the show and in fact actively dislike it), and I certainly don't feel that way because I think he's hot (I don't).

The Stranger was -conceptually- more interesting than literally anything else going on in the entirety of the Acolyte. The lasting legacy of the two powerful female characters is how poorly written they were, how uninteresting they were, and how unmotivated I was to care about them. So I guess it's probably fair to say that it's interesting how even when they're trying to write a show about powerful women, they can't help but write a show where the man is the only interesting character and the women are essentially MacGuffins.
 
Damien said:
This is maybe the best description of The Acolyte I have ever read. I still have no idea why the twins matter at all.
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They never fucking tell you! It was maddening!
Damien said:
I think there's a tendency to write the bad boys and serial murderers to be more interesting/fun characters.
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This is a huge part of it. Even poorly written villains get to have more fun and almost always leave a bigger impression. Of course they do, they're allowed to chew scenery. They are typically much more active in a plot than a protagonist. They actually have a plan and are doing stuff. Heroes, especially in this kind of media, are almost always reactive.
Damien said:
they can't help but write a show where the man is the only interesting character and the women are essentially MacGuffins.
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Compare/contrast with Andor, a show where you need Stellan Skarsgård as his peak to just run parallel to all the great women parts in that show. Mothma and "Three man squad" Kleya were excellent. Deda Meero proves the villain rule. She is so wonderfully contemptuous as a character and I was thrilled every time her reptilian ass was on screen.
 
JakeEkiss said:
I have to assume you're talking about the broader fandom because I don't think anybody here is really saying either of those things.

I think every actor on that show was wasted because none of them were given a conflict, narrative, or dialog that I thought was up to their collective talents.
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I have met more women in my life who would bang Buscemi than a pretty boy.
 
JakeEkiss said:
They never fucking tell you! It was maddening!
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Right?! I can't tell if they were just bad at conveying why they mattered, if it was being saved for later but there was an idea in there, or if even the writers just had no idea beyond 'because plot.' It's pretty bad when I can't even tell if the -writers- know why the characters matter.


JakeEkiss said:
This is a huge part of it. Even poorly written villains get to have more fun and almost always leave a bigger impression. Of course they do, they're allowed to chew scenery. They are typically much more active in a plot than a protagonist. They actually have a plan and are doing stuff. Heroes, especially in this kind of media, are almost always reactive.
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Exactly. And there's a bonus problem, which the MCU also has had repeatedly; villains are often working against the status quo. That used to work. In more recent times, I think more and more people view the status quo as a bad thing. We know from watching the Prequel Trilogy that the Jedi essentially -cause- the collapse of the Republic by being complete narcissistic dickheads. They're also complete dickheads in The Acolyte. But like.. the bad guy is all 'Jedi suck and I'mma do my own thing' and we need to think of this as the BAD guy who we want to fail? Do I?
Because it seems like the bad guys in a lot of media these days are the ones making all the completely fair points.


JakeEkiss said:
Compare/contrast with Andor, a show where you need Stellan Skarsgård as his peak to just run parallel to all the great women parts in that show. Mothma and "Three man squad" Kleya were excellent. Deda Meero proves the villain rule. She is so wonderfully contemptuous as a character and I was thrilled every time her reptilian ass was on screen.
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Andor is an excellent contrast because it has an inescapable gravity well of excellent female characters that are head and shoulders more interesting than the men. So it's not like it cannot be done, or audiences won't be interested. It just can't be done if all of your female characters are painfully uninteresting or, as I said, walking MacGuffins.
 
Damien said:
Right?! I can't tell if they were just bad at conveying why they mattered, if it was being saved for later but there was an idea in there, or if even the writers just had no idea beyond 'because plot.' It's pretty bad when I can't even tell if the -writers- know why the characters matter.
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This was exactly where I landed. I couldn't tell if the writers knew what the plot was. It was weird.
Damien said:
Exactly. And there's a bonus problem, which the MCU also has had repeatedly; villains are often working against the status quo. That used to work. In more recent times, I think more and more people view the status quo as a bad thing. We know from watching the Prequel Trilogy that the Jedi essentially -cause- the collapse of the Republic by being complete narcissistic dickheads. They're also complete dickheads in The Acolyte. But like.. the bad guy is all 'Jedi suck and I'mma do my own thing' and we need to think of this as the BAD guy who we want to fail? Do I?
Because it seems like the bad guys in a lot of media these days are the ones making all the completely fair points.
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100%. One of the reasons I was hopeful for Acolyte was because I was interested in seeing a take on the Jedi that were earlier in their cycle. Where maybe the order weren't all just soft authoritarians. I was looking for a Jedi order with some life and vitality in it, where I could see why they were known for "a thousand generations" as guardians of peace. There's a good story there, but it probably involves the order vs some dominant power structures instead of setting up a massive temple just down the road from the galactic Senate.
Damien said:
Andor is an excellent contrast because it has an inescapable gravity well of excellent female characters that are head and shoulders more interesting than the men. So it's not like it cannot be done, or audiences won't be interested. It just can't be done if all of your female characters are painfully uninteresting or, as I said, walking MacGuffins.
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Even Andor's mom kicks ass and she spends most of her time on screen dying.
 
JakeEkiss said:
100%. One of the reasons I was hopeful for Acolyte was because I was interested in seeing a take on the Jedi that were earlier in their cycle. Where maybe the order weren't all just soft authoritarians. I was looking for a Jedi order with some life and vitality in it, where I could see why they were known for "a thousand generations" as guardians of peace. There's a good story there, but it probably involves the order vs some dominant power structures instead of setting up a massive temple just down the road from the galactic Senate.
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That's what I wanted/expected; a story from a time when the Jedi really were beacons of truth and light and honesty. Where EVERY Jedi was almost a caricature of a D&D Lawful Good Paladin. The Dark Is Rising kind of a storyline where truly good, even innocent Jedi are being forced, for the first time in many (most) of their lives to look into the face of evil and see if it changes them. There were so many great places to go with the golden age of the Jedi and they were like 'what if they were ALWAYS kind of douchebags and also maybe murderers? Just as a treat.'
Lame.
 
I’ve said before how I liked a lot of the characters in Acolyte. Sol, Yord, and Jecki are some of the most interesting Jedi characters. Sol in particular actually has real emotion. And Stranger was amazing as character.

The Sol vs. Stranger fight is fantastic! Best light saber duel.

All that said, I still didn’t like the show overall.


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Damien said:
The Dark Is Rising kind of a storyline where truly good, even innocent Jedi are being forced, for the first time in many (most) of their lives to look into the face of evil and see if it changes them.
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Almost a Tommy Lee Jones in No Country For Old Men take. I could totally see a really awesome character arc like that with the Jedi. Being used to quelling border disputes and such, and having the Sith show up and just tear them to bits for a while because they simply can't wrap their heads around being that cruel for its own sake and having to work through it.
 
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