Random Observations and ?s Re: Older Marvel Legends

Chooch555 said:
I feel like Excaliber was a book that you either loved or completely blocked from your mind. Not hated or even disliked, but magically forgot existed, even when it was ongoing.
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You know, I loved the idea of Excalibur a lot more than I loved the book. The team looks so good together color-wise and I like each member a lot but that comic was out there. I read the whole thing a couple of years ago for the first time. My love for the team comes from the comic cards more than anything.
 
TheSameIdiot said:
I'd kill the BAF model, except I think some characters wouldn't see the light of day otherwise. Juggernaut, Venom, and the eventual Gatecrasher are all popular enough to warrant single-carded releases. Is Titus (admittedly no great loss there) or The Void? I doubt it. The only other avenue is a multipack, and with all the budget going to a BAF-sized character, it's going to be an uninspired box set.
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The thing is - I don't know how I feel about this argument. In 2025 three-quarters of the waves already aren't using the BAF concept (the SM Retro and Mini Comic waves and the Gameverse wave), and the other remaining wave cranked out a BAF of a semi-popular X-Men villain.

What did we get for BAFs across all of 2024? Zabu - that could have come in a deluxe or boxed set with Ka-Zar and/or Ka-Zar and Shanna. Void - questionable as a single release, but I'll get to that. And Blackheart - a fairly important B-list villain that has literally been single-carded in Marvel Legends' past.

So yeah, I'll give you literally one BAF in a year-and-a-half of releases that is questionable. But then I look at figures that have been single-carded (either deluxe or part of retro waves or whatever that don't have BAF parts associated with them) and I see some stuff way weirder or more obscure than Void. Guys like Kaine - who is literally only known and cared about by specifically hardcore fans of a particular part of mid-90s Spider-Man comics. Count Nefaria and pirate boots Whiplash?

And that being said - I still think there's a place for characters that would struggle on their own. We just have to be honest that 99% of those characters are team/story filler that would be best served slotted into multi-packs rather than as BAF figures anyway. Ch'od, for instance, easily could have been a headline get for a Starjammers pack. Instead we got a Ch'od BAF and still don't have most of the Starjammers, which is weird. To the 'uninspired boxed set' argument all I can say is a lot of single releases in BAF waves are pretty uninspired. For probably the same reason. So it's a lose-lose proposition.

Although I'd also argue we're probably past the point that any of this matters that much. ML has moved well past retail exposure being a concern. They can sell stuff like Void as deluxe figures directly to customers through Fan Channel or Pulse and not worry about how much curb appeal the character has and therefore they don't need any 'tricks' to sell him.


Reno said:
I've found that in recent years that I've started buying more diorama stuff as I got very tired of just having characters on a bookshelf. I'd love a build-a-diorama type concept, but it seems unlikely. A lot of the good diorama stuff out there is just far too expensive. In recent years I have bought more things like the NECA street scene and some stuff from places like Extreme Sets (usually only when big sales hit). I also watch for stuff that isn't necessarily designed for this purpose but still works like Aquarium decor, certain art and dollhouse accessories - although this is usually stuff bought dirt cheap at garage sales, bin stores, second hand stores or in clearance sales. I've experimented with making my own from various materials but I'm just not a very creative person in general so I'm not very good with that.

I'm one of those that has historically found limited value in the other types of accessories such as extra heads, hands, etc... or even weapons and effects. In most cases, 90% of these end up in a bin for me to never be seen or used again. The one exception is probably the alternate heads that I use a lot for kitbashing... but very specific character heads don't work great for that purpose for me.
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I'd love to do more diorama stuff but I just don't think it's ever going to be realistic for the number of lines I collect and the amount of space I have. I used to do it a lot, especially with 1:18 stuff. There was a time when my G.I. Joe and Star Wars set-ups were pretty bitchin'. Not so much anymore.
As for parts - I always stress that the value in all the extra parts isn't that you have all these extra parts. It's that they represent built-in customizability to your action figure. An extra pair of hands or a different head can literally be the difference between 'I don't care about that figure' and 'I must have it.' Even if you'd buy it regardless, those options (even if you choose them once and never think about them again) can drastically impact how you display a figure. Even just as a small example - your '97 Wolverine and mine might look very different on the shelf because you're claws out and mask on, and I'm mask-off and claws out on one hand with his no-claws fist on his hip. Same package, but very different results on our shelves, even if neither of us ever change those options ever again.

hmmberto said:
This kind of thing is always tricky to me because the people best positioned to make that judgement - and the most motivated to get it right - are the ones with the actual sales information. Not to say they can't make mistakes, but they are the ones with the data to back up what works and what doesn't. The BAF must have some value them to get characters in a wave who they'd otherwise worry about selling - and for me that's a plus, because I love the z-listers.

I do think we're in the middle of an experimental period to sort out this exact issue of BAF vs deluxe - why was Lockjaw a deluxe 2-pack, but Zabu a BAF? Mindless Ones as BAFs, but an Outriders 2-pack (waaaay more preferable for an army builder). I like that they're playing around with all these different models, and if the BAF can go away without sacrificing the deep cuts I'm a-ok with it. They've already cut BAFs back considerably in the last year or two, so maybe you're onto something. Those few BAF waves also happen to have the character selection I'm most excited about, so I'm still nervous that one necessitates the other.
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As you say - the people with the most motivation to follow the money have decided that three-quarters of the waves released so far this year not be BAF waves. That could say something. I also, to be fair, don't take it particularly seriously that these people are best positioned to make these judgements. Because we're talking about an industry that has been known to fall back to 'safe but wrong' over and over again (female figures don't sell, people love action features, etc). The problem is.. the data tells you what you want it to if you control what data you bother to collect.
 
Damien said:
The thing is - I don't know how I feel about this argument. In 2025 three-quarters of the waves already aren't using the BAF concept (the SM Retro and Mini Comic waves and the Gameverse wave), and the other remaining wave cranked out a BAF of a semi-popular X-Men villain.

What did we get for BAFs across all of 2024? Zabu - that could have come in a deluxe or boxed set with Ka-Zar and/or Ka-Zar and Shanna. Void - questionable as a single release, but I'll get to that. And Blackheart - a fairly important B-list villain that has literally been single-carded in Marvel Legends' past.

So yeah, I'll give you literally one BAF in a year-and-a-half of releases that is questionable. But then I look at figures that have been single-carded (either deluxe or part of retro waves or whatever that don't have BAF parts associated with them) and I see some stuff way weirder or more obscure than Void. Guys like Kaine - who is literally only known and cared about by specifically hardcore fans of a particular part of mid-90s Spider-Man comics. Count Nefaria and pirate boots Whiplash?

And that being said - I still think there's a place for characters that would struggle on their own. We just have to be honest that 99% of those characters are team/story filler that would be best served slotted into multi-packs rather than as BAF figures anyway. Ch'od, for instance, easily could have been a headline get for a Starjammers pack. Instead we got a Ch'od BAF and still don't have most of the Starjammers, which is weird. To the 'uninspired boxed set' argument all I can say is a lot of single releases in BAF waves are pretty uninspired. For probably the same reason. So it's a lose-lose proposition.

Although I'd also argue we're probably past the point that any of this matters that much. ML has moved well past retail exposure being a concern. They can sell stuff like Void as deluxe figures directly to customers through Fan Channel or Pulse and not worry about how much curb appeal the character has and therefore they don't need any 'tricks' to sell him.
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These are all good points. It's funny, I'm defending something I don't like anymore. I was a fan of BAFs when Toy Biz was putting out Sentinels and I was buying whole waves, but neither of those things are happening now. All the characters I collect are mainstream enough to get single-carded releases (Thanos, Apocalypse, Kingpin, etc.).

I worry for the folks who want the likes of Bonebreaker in their collection. (I'm just going to take a minute to complain about the fact that I had to do five minutes of research to find a BAF that likely wouldn't work as a Fan Channel exclusive or in a box set/multipack. Goddamn I miss Marvel Legends dot net.) It's possible Bonebreaker could land in a box set with a repainted Wolverine and re-releases of Lady Deathstrike and Donald Pierce, but I'm not sure that would happen. I'm confident it'd sell poorly.

I think the niche big guys and gals need an avenue for release, even if Hasbro is only using the model a few times per year. If there were a Fan Channel exclusive as obscure as the Void, Titus, or Bonebreaker, I'd agree with you. I don't think one exists. I'm not sure they've ever centered a box set around a character like that, either.
 
I think last year's SDCC Death's Head might work as an example of an obscure Fan Channel exclusive - I have no interest in the character or context and even on sale I've passed on the figure. Maybe he's on the same tier with those mentioned.

And hey - maybe doing such obscure picks as BAFs is why the lines aren't selling as well. Put Executioner in the next BAF wave AS the BAF and see if that wave doesn't sell better. We started with Galactus, the Sentinel, Onslaught, Mojo - if we're down to D-list characters, let's swing back the other way and see what happens. And I'd be fine with a regular-sized BAF if it means getting Valentina on my shelf, or Penance, or...
 
Damien said:
As you say - the people with the most motivation to follow the money have decided that three-quarters of the waves released so far this year not be BAF waves. That could say something. I also, to be fair, don't take it particularly seriously that these people are best positioned to make these judgements. Because we're talking about an industry that has been known to fall back to 'safe but wrong' over and over again (female figures don't sell, people love action features, etc). The problem is.. the data tells you what you want it to if you control what data you bother to collect.
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Yeeeah, but those specific examples you cite as industry problems can't fairly be leveled at ML. There's a reason they've been on the shelves longer than most other lines, so I think it's fair to give them a bit of credit for interpreting their own success correctly. The dropoff in BAFs from 2023-2024 was pretty dramatic (7 in 2023 vs 3 in 2024) and so far 2025 also looks light, so it's definitely looking like a trend.

TheSameIdiot said:
These are all good points. It's funny, I'm defending something I don't like anymore. I was a fan of BAFs when Toy Biz was putting out Sentinels and I was buying whole waves, but neither of those things are happening now. All the characters I collect are mainstream enough to get single-carded releases (Thanos, Apocalypse, Kingpin, etc.).

I worry for the folks who want the likes of Bonebreaker in their collection. (I'm just going to take a minute to complain about the fact that I had to do five minutes of research to find a BAF that likely wouldn't work as a Fan Channel exclusive or in a box set/multipack. Goddamn I miss Marvel Legends dot net.) It's possible Bonebreaker could land in a box set with a repainted Wolverine and re-releases of Lady Deathstrike and Donald Pierce, but I'm not sure that would happen. I'm confident it'd sell poorly.

I think the niche big guys and gals need an avenue for release, even if Hasbro is only using the model a few times per year. If there were a Fan Channel exclusive as obscure as the Void, Titus, or Bonebreaker, I'd agree with you. I don't think one exists. I'm not sure they've ever centered a box set around a character like that, either.
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I won't stop singing the praises of https://legendsverse.com/home - you can search by waves or individual releases, which makes scrolling through for BAFs a breeze.

If the last year+ of releases becomes the norm for ML I'm a-ok with it. Only a handful of BAF waves, but that's where the deep cuts showed up along with a BAF to help them move. Deluxe releases, retro waves, multipacks, and Maximum series figures that get a lot more love in the unique sculpt/accessory department. And the made to order model launching (though possibly ruined by tariffs) to get even more weird stuff made. The last few years have actually had a lot of experimentation in how they deliver figures.

I'm just glad there's still an effort to keep the new characters coming. Every time a new wave gets announced with a Justice or a Lilith there's a chorus of people asking "Who? Why?" (not this community, but other, stupider ones). The powers that be obviously recognize the need to keep those randos coming, and I'm glad for it.
 
The lament for me around the loss of the BAF idea is cost. Initially they were a bonus. Then it factored into the cost. Then not having them at all was the same price. I'm not naive enough to think they wouldn't have found other ways to raise prices, but at least I felt like there was some value.

All that said, I agree that there are precious few must have figures that fit the BAF size remaining. And we're not limited to shelf space restrictions so form factors aren't the detriment they were when Jesse Falcon came up with the idea. I think the current route of a few a year is great. Not every wave needs one and shoehorning in the idea created those MCU/comic splits that frustrated many.
 
Chooch555 said:
The lament for me around the loss of the BAF idea is cost. Initially they were a bonus. Then it factored into the cost. Then not having them at all was the same price. I'm not naive enough to think they wouldn't have found other ways to raise prices, but at least I felt like there was some value.

All that said, I agree that there are precious few must have figures that fit the BAF size remaining. And we're not limited to shelf space restrictions so form factors aren't the detriment they were when Jesse Falcon came up with the idea. I think the current route of a few a year is great. Not every wave needs one and shoehorning in the idea created those MCU/comic splits that frustrated many.
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Exactly- I feel like mixing up the waves more is the way to go. The last thing I want is more normal sized characters being the BAF like Mantis, Okoye, M'Baku, or Cosmo were. Or heck, even the Sam Cap Build-a-Wing wave- just make it a deluxe figure. I know that seems to be an MCU-only problem, but it's not something I'd want to see continue or bleed over into the comics line when they've exhausted the big boys.
 
To Hmmberto's point, as long as they find a way to keep the new characters coming. That's really all I care about at this point.

Yes, I buy plenty of updates or re-do's but I feel dirty and foolish every single time that I do. Since I truly only generally keep one version of a character the cumulative price that I paid for that character just rises... for example I bet that I've spend hundreds of dollars each on Spider-Man, Wolverine and Cap figures by this point and I still only display one of each - so I consider the price that I paid for that figure to be the cumulative price that I've ever paid for all figures of that character combined. The value proposition gets destroyed pretty quickly. Whereas since they've only ever made one version of Magik, Sunspot, Frog-Man, Stilt-Man, White Rabbit, Armadillo, Strong Guy, etc... I feel much better about the value of those figures even if the casual Marvel fan may not even know who some of those characters are.

The only reason I continue to collect is to get new characters. Honestly I'd really prefer to never feel the need to ever buy another figure of a character that I already have in my collection again. (but I still continue to do it, of course) After more than 20 years of collecting this scale of comic figures, it might just be one of those signs that perhaps I should consider walking away because I know that there are always going to be extensive repeats of the most popular characters. Or I just need to convince myself that I'm happy with whatever version I have of previously done characters and stop feeling the need to upgrade to the newest version just because it's pinless or has more updated articulation.
 
It doesn't always work out that way, but I'd rather get an extra accessory than a BAF part 99% of the time.
Reno said:
Whereas since they've only ever made one version of Magik, Sunspot, Frog-Man, Stilt-Man, White Rabbit, Armadillo, Strong Guy, etc...
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Excuse me, I'll have you know Magik is solidly C-list and pushing her way into B-list. ;)
hmmberto said:
I won't stop singing the praises of https://legendsverse.com/home - you can search by waves or individual releases, which makes scrolling through for BAFs a breeze.
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Requiring a log-in is frustrating, but I'll give it a look. I talk a ton of shit about McFarlane, but it's so nice that all of their product is listed on their website. Hasbro could do the same at virtually no cost.
 
The only BAF we've seen in 2025 is the X-Men Nemesis Fan Channel wave.
In previous years we would have had at least 2 to 3 BAF waves available by now.
Last year's Strange Tales wave wasn't a part of any rumored lists, but popped up as a "leak" right before the wave was revealed.

The rumored MCU T-Bolts BAF wave didn't pan out.
We'll soon see if the rumored FF MCU BAF wave is an actual BAF wave.
The only other rumored BAF waves are:
-Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man wave with Doc Ock as the BAF
-Deadpool and Wolverine Wave 2 with Juggernaut as the BAF.

It's pretty widely speculated Hasbro is not planning on any Avengers BAF waves because of the poor anniversary sales two years ago which is a shame because that's the perfect way to get unusual characters like Griffin and Orka who would be less likely to show up in a 2-pack like other larger Avengers-related characters like Charlie-27, M'Baku and cyborg box Korvac.
Comic Spidey hasn't had a BAF wave in years, which is a real shame because if they would have continued them, we could have had Stegron or a Spider-Slayer by now.
 
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I wonder why Spidey lost the BAF pieces. Cyborg Spider-Woman was *clearly* designed as the BAF for that wave, but then her pieces would have increased the size of the retro cards by... a lot. And the bigger the bubble on those cards, the less attractive they look? Or maybe the tinier the character designs looked in comparison?

Or it has something to do with Sony? Maybe they pulled some kind of "we get a percentage of every action figure sold but you are including a bonus one and we aren't getting any money off of that so GIVE US OUR MONEY" BS. IDK.

The Gamerverse wave is the first Spidey wave in boxes, right? They definitely should have gotten a BAF - I'm curious to see how well that wave sells. Instead, we get very slim boxes.
 
Here is the current state of my TB ML figures. Packed nuts to butts in two cardboard boxes. This is how I store all of my 6" figures not currently displayed (I have similar boxes for Hasbro ML and DC figures). I bet you can't see the lone TB female that I still own.

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