Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

AceofKnaves said:
I’m talking “hero” as distinct from “protagonist”. Absolutely agreed with all that if “hero” is substituted with “protagonist”.
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I agree that my Cap or Superman would be selfless. MCU Cap even jumped on a grenade for his origin story.

So it feels cheap to use Peggy and the kid. Maybe he wouldn't even know Doom was doing world ending stuff if he didn't intervene in his time displaced life? I could work with that.
 
I guess I just never gelled with “they threatened his loved ones, they were DEAD WRONG” narratives for “heroes”. Compelling motivation? Yes. Just not aspirational in the way I’m looking for with a “hero” (as opposed to “an interesting character”).
Damien said:
it makes him apparently not my kind of hero.
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Maybe it just boils down to this.
But I’d hate if those were the lessons young folks were internalizing as “this is how I should aspire to act”.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Well . . . *I* wanted Tony to be willing to undo the Snap from the jump *because it was the right thing to do* without the whole “but only if it doesn’t disrupt the last five years’ family stuff for me in any way” caveat,
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What about the 300 millions other kids who were born during that time? Its not just Tony's family.

I also disagree that protecting family is selfish - why would protecting someone who matters to the hero be a lesser reason than protecting someone they don't know? If you don't want it to be a more important reason, fine - but it isn't a failing that people will sacrifice for those they care about. I think it is unrealistic to say the hero has to be selfless - I assume if you had to choose between saving your wife and saving two random people you would choose to save your wife, and I think correctly so.
 
fac said:
I also disagree that protecting family is selfish - why would protecting someone who matters to the hero be a lesser reason than protecting someone they don't know? If you don't want it to be a more important reason, fine - but it isn't a failing that people will sacrifice for those they care about. I think it is unrealistic to say the hero has to be selfless - I assume if you had to choose between saving your wife and saving two random people you would choose to save your wife, and I think correctly so.
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I may not be much into Star Trek, but I firmly believe the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, regardless of who the “one” is. So I definitely wouldn’t assume that. Kinda feels awful to be like “oh I don’t know those two people so the life of the one person I do know matters more” regardless of the relationship.

I just don’t find self-interest heroic at all. It may not be “bad”, but it’s not heroic. Heroism is about transcending your own interests in service of a greater good.
 
AceofKnaves said:
I may not be much into Star Trek, but I firmly believe the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, regardless of who the “one” is.
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Spock did that to protect the entire crew though, who he knew and cared about...that doesn't make it less heroic, regardless of the logic.

I get what you are saying as a concept, but the reality of human connection means that Steve Rogers, won't (and to me shouldn't) give up his life and happiness to save one random person, but for his child? Of course he will. I mean the entire storyline of Civil War in the MCU was Cap going out of his way to protect Bucky even though he knew Bucky had killed Tony's parents - you think he'd have done that if Bucky wasn't his friend?

Oh, and I am working on my theory on how MCU Tony Stark becomes Dracula, will update you at some point... ;)
 
If the needs of the one are outweighed by the many, and Morgan Stark is the only thing preventing Tony from going along with undoing the snap... Should Steve have killed Morgan to get Tony there?
 
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fac said:
I do not think Thor's MCU arc is finished until he ascends to the throne and fully takes on the responsibility he has.
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That feels like a big step backward for me. It's not a character arc that matches the comics (as far as I know), but Thor realizing he's ill-suited to rule *was* his Saga-wide character arc.

It may not be the ending I was expecting, but it was an earned ending, and reversing course on that would make it all so unsatisfying.

altcunningham said:
X-Men and other books were so cool and pretty good with onboarding that I never felt any of it was inaccessible.
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Well, it is an old memory. I was pretty into Captain America and Iron Man at the time, so long comic history wasn't really a barrier. I'm just guessing at why I didn't care for X-Men until New Mutants came along.

Jolene00Negative said:
Every time the stakes are personal it takes way from them standing up for the right thing because its the right thing.
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There is value in putting a face to something. Audiences can conceptually understand "I need to stop Valentine's fight rays, but seeing Eggsy's mom trying to knife his sister really drives it home. It's just a visual cue for a visual medium.

Which is literally the opposite of Morgan Stark. She existed as an excuse to *not* save everybody. Because Tony's a dick.

AceofKnaves said:
Well . . . *I* wanted Tony to be willing to undo the Snap from the jump *because it was the right thing to do.
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You know we're on the same page about Tony, but I appreciate that there are differences in righteousness among the MCU heroes. They all have their own motivations. If you're looking for "because it's the right thing to do," we've got Steve and Parker for that.

altcunningham said:
Blake Snyder and Save the Cat, for better or worse, indoctrinated a bunch of people into an easy audience appeasing checklist that many writers use
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Speaking as one of those bunch of people, I've found immense value in a structure system to my writing.

I'm just a hobbyist, but I figure anybody using that checklist to write garbage scripts would've written garbage scripts regardless.
 
Fletch said:
Speaking as one of those bunch of people, I've found immense value in a structure system to my writing.

I'm just a hobbyist, but I figure anybody using that checklist to write garbage scripts would've written garbage scripts regardless.
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For sure. Formulas work. It's the quality of the ingredients that make them shine.
 
Damien said:
I actually fucking hate short-hair Thor. But it's expected. Chris has said more than once that one of the things he doesn't like about playing Thor is the long hair and that one of the things that got him to come back was when they said he could cut it off.



What if, and hear me out on this; the heartstring they're trying to pull in the actual film is that Cap has a kid now and has to leave them to go do the right thing. To go fight a fight he might not return from, because that's what Captain America does even at any and every personal cost. Maybe it's not a motivation for Cap at all, but a motivation for the audience to want to see him survive and go home - when most audiences are kind of usually okay with heroes making heroic sacrifices.
I still think that's the MAJOR reason Tony had a daughter; they could have manufactured any number of motivations for Tony's behaviour. They wanted the AUDIENCE to be more upset by the idea that he sacrifices himself. -We- wanted Tony to go home to his daughter when this was all done. Without her, we would probably be generally more accepting of him just dying to save the world. Sure, why not - that's what he's there for after all.
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Come on Chris, women have to have long hair all the time in movies, suck it up and wear a wig

Fuck them Kids. Kill em off, we don't need em.

It's like anytime in comics, they introduce a pregnant superhero. You gotta kill that baby or age them up quickly, cause no one cares about that albatross

Damien said:
Are we going with Tony did a genocide? Wasn't 99% of the army Thanos brought made up bio-slave alien bug-dogs that were confirmed by Marvel/Disney to not be a sapient species? Take them out of the equation and Tony just killed the still-alive bad guys on the field that the rest of the Avengers were also actively trying to kill, so.... not sure there.
And I have no problem with a middle finger to the bad guy. A good guy can still do a good thing while being an arrogant dick about it. That's like.. some heroes' entire personality. Fuck, Spider-Man's ENTIRE thing is that he laughs at villains and makes fun of them while beating the shit out of them.
So, respectfully, I think this is just a reach to hate on Tony some more. And don't get me wrong - Tony sucks. I don't like him as a comic character or as a movie character. But I don't think that makes him not a hero so much as it makes him apparently not my kind of hero.
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Anything marvel/disney says out of the movie doesn't really matter. as far as we know in the plot, he did just murder so many aliens. And like, look, thats the scenario the movie set up, its all very Ultimates inspired, and it's sucked since the beginning. Tony has never really been much of a hero or protector of others, he just kills his enemies all the time. And that's bad!


it's exhausting that all the og Avengers aside from Nat, are parents now. And she's not because 'she's a monster' and also dead.

Maybe it'll be nice (it won't be) and it will be Steve from some other Universe, one that never turns into Joe Biden. Just some random Steve married to Bernie Rosenthal. Cause like. it's be real fucking sexist to go ask for Steve's help, and not Peggy who's also a fucking badass.


whats even more annoying is that since the introduction of Ms. Marvel, real Hawkeye, America Chavez, and others I've been waiting for them to just switch focus to the Young Avengers, and by the time they get around to it, they'll all be in their thirties and the MCU's gonna focus on these Avengers babies and it'll be annoying AF



also, re the snap and "What about the babies born since the snap"? counter: what about all the other people that died because of lingering effects of the snap.

these hypotheticals are two way streets, and like Ace said, the movie only wants us to care about Tony and his kid.
 
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