Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

[fac]

Not to get all Quesada about, but I think making everyone a dad makes these characters less relatable to kids. Feels like an obvious “appeal to the folks who were adolescents in 2012 and now have families” move. Cynical. Don’t like it.

We'll see how it plays out, but I think it might work if the story is more personal for the heroes than another "save the universe from the aliens" threat?

What I am VERY here for is Thor asking for the power of the Allfather.

I do not think Thor's MCU arc is finished until he ascends to the throne and fully takes on the responsibility he has. I will also note that Hemsworth was mentioned a few months ago that he realized they went too silly with Thor and that undermined the character. I am suspicious that scene of him praying is after Love has been taken, or he had a vision about it...

 

[AceofKnaves]

We'll see how it plays out, but I think it might work if the story is more personal for the heroes than another "save the universe from the aliens" threat?

It’s just so far outside the established parameters for these heroes (Cap, Thor). Some folks may dig it, but at this point these characters are essentially unrecognizable to me from the source material. And none of this matches anything established about Doom.

Probably one of those things that if one is bought into the MCU as a separate and distinct thing, and isn’t particularly invested in the comics, one might dig.

Also: I think it dilutes the heroism when it is personal and about kids. Cap fights evil because he is Cap, not because some guy threatened his kid and HOW DARE HE!

 

[fac]

And none of this matches anything established about Doom.

Doom co-opts powers and abilities from other beings (Silver Surfer, Beyonder) in the comics, so it isn't outside his established plans and skill set to try to do so...

 

[altcunningham]

I honestly don't remember when I read any X-Men in real time. I think I felt they were too inaccessible to someone just starting out. I was with New Mutants from day 1, and remember being really excited when Spider-Man kicked all their asses in Secret Wars. Most of my X-Men knowledge really is after the fact.

Always interesting hearing these discussions. For me, X-Men and other books were so cool and pretty good with onboarding that I never felt any of it was inaccessible.

In fact, hopping into issue 280 or whatever made me feel like I was now in the club.

All the long form comics felt like leaps of faith and hinged on if I liked a character or two. That was enough to pick up context cues and captions and catch up. Sometimes, not always, going back.

 

[Jolene00Negative]

I thought they also introduced that concept in What If...?

well that show def aint canon to me.

 

[Jolene00Negative]

It’s just so far outside the established parameters for these heroes (Cap, Thor). Some folks may dig it, but at this point these characters are essentially unrecognizable to me from the source material. And none of this matches anything established about Doom.

Probably one of those things that if one is bought into the MCU as a separate and distinct thing, and isn’t particularly invested in the comics, one might dig.

Also: I think it dilutes the heroism when it is personal and about kids. Cap fights evil because he is Cap, not because some guy threatened his kid and HOW DARE HE!

fr though, like. Every time the stakes are personal it takes way from them standing up for the right thing because its the right thing.

 

[yojoebro82]

I just saw the Thor teaser. I hated Love and Thunder but liking what I'm seeing here.

 

[Sgt. Stinky]

Definitely feels like the kids may be critical to Doom's plans, especially when you add the FF: First Steps post credit scene with Franklin into the mix with these two.

 

[AceofKnaves]

fr though, like. Every time the stakes are personal it takes way from them standing up for the right thing because it’s the right thing.

Absolutely yes to this.

I also feel like it plays into the macho and even rightwing-coding of the series: making the stakes about “protecting what’s mine” rather than “this is the right thing to do even if and perhaps especially if it costs me what’s mine”. That’s yet another complaint I have about MCU Iron Man: it became increasingly personal over time to the point where every decision he made in Endgame was for personal reasons, either preserving what he’s got or “avenging”. All of that just isn’t “heroic” to me, and in real life all kinds of absolutely awful people justify their terrible shit with “I’ve got to look out for my family/myself/my interests”. And even if said shit isn’t actually awful, acting in self-interest just isn’t heroism to me, even if it’s something “uplifting” like protecting family. Heroism, at least to me, is about doing the right thing because it is *right*, not because you personally get a benefit or avoid a detriment.

 

[Damien]

He did, and Love had Stormbreaker, so... Yeah. And he has short hair again.

I actually fucking hate short-hair Thor. But it's expected. Chris has said more than once that one of the things he doesn't like about playing Thor is the long hair and that one of the things that got him to come back was when they said he could cut it off. I figured we were getting short hair Thor as soon as the rumor hit that Chris was coming back for at least one more appearance.

Mjolnir is still my big question mark. Maybe Doom stole it? Who knows.

I do not think Thor's MCU arc is finished until he ascends to the throne and fully takes on the responsibility he has. I will also note that Hemsworth was mentioned a few months ago that he realized they went too silly with Thor and that undermined the character. I am suspicious that scene of him praying is after Love has been taken, or he had a vision about it...

I kind of always expected Thor's arc ended when he realized he doesn't need to be anything other than what he is. It seemed like they'd kind of ignored the 'there always needs to be an Allfather' thing. Cool that they seem to be returning to that idea again, though. I do have to wonder what a fully powered up Thor looks like in the MCU, since just full THOR powers Thor in Ragnarok was insanely badass.

Also: I think it dilutes the heroism when it is personal and about kids. Cap fights evil because he is Cap, not because some guy threatened his kid and HOW DARE HE!

What if, and hear me out on this; the heartstring they're trying to pull in the actual film is that Cap has a kid now and has to leave them to go do the right thing. To go fight a fight he might not return from, because that's what Captain America does even at any and every personal cost. Maybe it's not a motivation for Cap at all, but a motivation for the audience to want to see him survive and go home - when most audiences are kind of usually okay with heroes making heroic sacrifices.
I still think that's the MAJOR reason Tony had a daughter; they could have manufactured any number of motivations for Tony's behaviour. They wanted the AUDIENCE to be more upset by the idea that he sacrifices himself. -We- wanted Tony to go home to his daughter when this was all done. Without her, we would probably be generally more accepting of him just dying to save the world. Sure, why not - that's what he's there for after all.

That in mind, I'd also just generally caution that we know next to nothing about this film. There's little value in getting deep into the weeds on what certain elements of the plot MIGHT be. Kids seem to be important. Are they important to the characters, to the plot overall, or just to the meta narrative? Who knows. The film industry has a now storied tradition of not even being honest in their trailers by including dialogue and scenes that aren't in the movie, or are edited in a way to be very different in context from how it goes in the movie. I just don't think we have enough to go on right now to worry about much beyond the general complaint of 'going back to the well and resurrecting characters that already got endings.' That would be a very valid concern.

 

[AceofKnaves]

-We- wanted Tony to go home to his daughter when this was all done.

Well . . . *I* wanted Tony to be willing to undo the Snap from the jump *because it was the right thing to do* without the whole “but only if it doesn’t disrupt the last five years’ family stuff for me in any way” caveat, and not just because he has Big Guilt about his personal relationship with Spidey. *That’s* why he’s a selfish asshole instead of a hero, at least in that particular moment.

 

[Damien]

Well . . . *I* wanted Tony to be willing to undo the Snap from the jump *because it was the right thing to do* without the whole “but only if it doesn’t disrupt the last five years’ family stuff for me in any way” caveat, and not just because he has Big Guilt about his personal relationship with Spidey. *That’s* why he’s a selfish asshole instead of a hero, at least in that particular moment.

I don't disagree. I'm only speaking about the writers' intention. Not whether or not it was good writing. Although maybe it's worth a ponder that Tony simply WAS a selfish piece of shit for the majority of the MCU and his death was one of the few times (virtually always in a crisis moment) where he actively chose selflessness. Maybe the take-away is that even a narcissist can choose in any given moment to do the right thing.

 

[AceofKnaves]

Although maybe it's worth a ponder that Tony simply WAS a selfish piece of shit for the majority of the MCU and his death was one of the few times (virtually always in a crisis moment) where he actively chose selflessness. Maybe the take-away is that even a narcissist can choose in any given moment to do the right thing.

lol he ended with the equivalent of a middle finger at his adversary and a “neener neener I win, bitch!” while doing genocide. Total selfish move. The only “he chose selflessness” moment I’ll give him is the very end of the first Avengers movie, which he then used as a motivation to [checks notes] build a fleet of murder bots for “benevolent” fascism.

Anyway. Yes, it could be that Cap has to go back to battle *despite* being a dad instead of because of it, and that would indeed be less-shitty.

 

[Damien]

lol he ended with the equivalent of a middle finger at his adversary and a “neener neener I win, bitch!” while doing genocide. Total selfish move. The only “he chose selflessness” moment I’ll give him is the very end of the first Avengers movie, which he then used as a motivation to [checks notes] build a fleet of murder bots for “benevolent” fascism.

Are we going with Tony did a genocide? Wasn't 99% of the army Thanos brought made up bio-slave alien bug-dogs that were confirmed by Marvel/Disney to not be a sapient species? Take them out of the equation and Tony just killed the still-alive bad guys on the field that the rest of the Avengers were also actively trying to kill, so.... not sure there.
And I have no problem with a middle finger to the bad guy. A good guy can still do a good thing while being an arrogant dick about it. That's like.. some heroes' entire personality. Fuck, Spider-Man's ENTIRE thing is that he laughs at villains and makes fun of them while beating the shit out of them.
So, respectfully, I think this is just a reach to hate on Tony some more. And don't get me wrong - Tony sucks. I don't like him as a comic character or as a movie character. But I don't think that makes him not a hero so much as it makes him apparently not my kind of hero.

Anyway. Yes, it could be that Cap has to go back to battle *despite* being a dad instead of because of it, and that would indeed be less-shitty.

I'm hoping.
Even as a parent that is very easily emotionally manipulated by kid stuff, I don't want the entirety of an Avengers film to be 'we must save our kids.' Unless it's 'we must save our kids from becoming us.' I LOVE the Thor trailer speech about wanting to go home not as a warrior, but warmth, to teach her not battle but stillness. Love that so much.

 

[altcunningham]

Absolutely yes to this.

I also feel like it plays into the macho and even rightwing-coding of the series: making the stakes about “protecting what’s mine” rather than “this is the right thing to do even if and perhaps especially if it costs me what’s mine”.

Mm.

Not sure I can take this ride.

I'm not Doc, but I have written screenplays, done workshops, and worked with TIFF teaching film to kids.

Blake Snyder and Save the Cat, for better or worse, indoctrinated a bunch of people into an easy audience appeasing checklist that many writers use, crediting it or not. And even then, he's just pointing to what worked before, so it isn't new.

It's the idea that personal stakes make the hero and stakes more relatable. It's a way to cheat that all important emotional investment and connection. Big stakes are often balanced against these smaller connections for the sake of tapping the audience.

It's a cheat tool and feels inauthentic when it's done poorly. But I can't find the cynicism and agenda here, as a regular viewer.

I agree with the heart of your argument but not the logic?