Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

Heh... well... I do watch movies about selfish jerks being destructive and awful too.... I mean, one of my favorite movies of all time is Goodfellas.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Tony is the ultimate “freedom and happiness for me, not necessarily for thee, but I GOT MINE!” guy.
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Given that he knew using the Gauntlet would kill him, I don't think that this is a true representation of his character at the end. In fact his whole character arc is that he wouldn't have done that at the start of IM1 because he was that person to some extent, and would not have jumped on the grenade like Steve did. But when he needed to, he did make that sacrifice. You also misread that final line, as that was clearly him steeling himself for what was he was about to do, which was sacrifice himself.
 
Ru1977 said:
movies about selfish jerks being destructive and awful
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Hahaha I mean, sure.
Not this genre, though, and certainly not with the flagship character who is totally “cool-coded” by the narrative. The Goodfellas guys are NOT narratively framed as aspirational: Tony is.
 
fac said:
You also misread that final line
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Or just interpreted it differently.

I definitely got that he had evolved to be able to “make the sacrifice play” but he STILL had to make it all about himself. Even when doing “good” (and I would contend his counter-snap was NOT “good”) he’s still a prisoner of his loathsome narcissism.
 
Ace, I know we're arguing opinions, though it feels like it's a bit more than that sometimes, but I gave in to my dickishness some and that wasn't cool.
 
Sometimes necessary actions are not, when viewed on their own, good actions. I get what you are saying about heroes and generally agree, however sometimes in a fight or war you need to be proactive about stopping the aggression of others. And sometimes, when you might only get one shot, you need to take it even if you don't want to. Its not like there was an owner's manual for using the stones.

I'm not sure Tony knows anything about the enslaved or not nature of Thanos' army to factor into his decision making? Do you feel bad for the Orcs in LotR?
 
Ru1977 said:
Ace, I know we're arguing opinions, though it feels like it's a bit more than that sometimes, but I gave in to my dickishness some and that wasn't cool.
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Whoa! You are totally fine!!! Not a dick!!!

I know my “damn people are selfish” stance can be harsh, but to be clear I’m talking about people who put their near-and-dears first *to the detriment of others*, not just a general “gotta take care of my family!” stuff.

As for Tony: I get that he speaks to some folks, but he simply does not to me, and it does make me sad that he was pushed soooo hard as THE GOOD GUY. If he’d been challenged more, by other characters and by the narrative, and his awful actions were ever truly and actually called out (like it used to be in the comics with “the mouthy dick” character like OG Hawkeye, etc) it might sit better with me. But he was clearly framed as the “coolest of cool” and the lion’s share of his bullying dialogue was coded as “funny and acceptable”. He’s just not the kind of guy I would ever accept or respect, in fiction or in real life. He just kept flunking the attitude test with me and never stopped. And yeah I think he influenced our culture for the worse and is at least a small part of the macho-fascist hellscape in which we live. And I do think that the filmmakers had a responsibility to “read the room” in 2016-2020 and adjust accordingly, but it really feels like the MCU leaned into MAGA values rather than rejecting them, at least until after Endgame.
 
I mean Morgan wasn’t the only person born in the last 5 years. Just reversing the world back 5 years would have “erased” 10s or 100s of millions.

Tony is a flawed hero. His flaw is selfishness. Been pretty consistent throughout many films. He beats it in the end. Flawed heroes is sorta what Marvel is known for
 
PanchaMaestro said:
He beats it in the end.
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I guess that’s where we have to agree to disagree.
Also: I think he’s hiding behind “flawed hero” as an excuse, as are the writers. He’s a villain, and a major one, he just has a good “press agent” in the writers and the fans. Unfortunately.
 
Ru1977 said:
The orcs were clearly massive dicks.
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Doesn’t mean they deserve to die by genocide, though.
Although to be fair there is no real equivalent act to the Snap in LotR. Equivalent *results*, yes, but not an equivalent act.
 
joshsquash729 said:
"Looks like dicks are back on the menu, boys!" or whatever that one orc said.
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I guess we all hear what we wanna hear, huh? ;)

AceofKnaves said:
Doesn’t mean they deserve to die by genocide, though.
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Well, we're gonna get into "should they have dropped the bombs on Japan" thing soon here. But on an individual scale... like, I don't technically believe in the death penalty, yet I also do believe some people should be killed. The easiest one would be anyone who harms a child. Yeah at least some orcs fall under that, but I also think that some people who are going to inflict pain, suffering and fascism on others need to be stopped, yeah at all cost.

With LOTR, it feels like, to me, it could be argued that destroying the ring undid all of Sauron's evil creations, since the ground was basically breaking and swallowing the orcs up. Then the fleeing Uruks at the end of Towers were killed by the Hourns, which can be claimed to be part of nature, right? Nature doing away with destructive heavy industry?
 
Yeah I don’t see the Fall of Sauron as remotely analogous to either Snap. Hell, they didn’t even kill *Sauron* on purpose, it was just a result of destroying the One Ring. I don’t see Frodo and Sam, or even Gandalf being as cavalier-cowboy about living things as MCU Stark.
 
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