Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

[SDcomics]

And mine too.

So that's just like, BOTH of our opinions, man.

 

[Ru1977]

 

[Fletch]

Did you really want the end of Infinity War to be Nebula getting the Gauntlet, then another super powerful character in Warlock gets it from her

Yes, but not for the reasons you might think.

I found time-travel Thanos to be kind of a boring final foe. He had no idea who these people were, and we'd already seen him AND his Order defeated by the Avengers. I don't think Nebula's story exactly lead to be taking the gauntlet, but the torture element was there and it would've been something new.

As for Adam Warlock, he was teased just prior to Infinity War and it was so weird that they didn't use him in the story he's most famous for, instead choosing to save him for a bad fit in GotG 3.

You wind up with shit like Catwoman

Definitely a cautionary tale. I think it's very reasonable to expect our comic adaptations to be true to the characters.

I must have a line somewhere, though. For some reason, I've no problem with Captain Marvel just using the names of the characters from the comics and otherwise changing every single other thing about them. And I'm actually a fan of making Namor Aztec. But you make a character named Patience Whatever, have her get resurrected by cats, and try to call her Catwoman, I say no.

Rhodey as Iron Patriot? That's fine. Darren Cross as MODOK? Smart idea (I mean, it sucked, but not because he wasn't made by AIM). Pietro and Wanda not mutants? Not...great... but I see the need. Ms. Marvel not an Inhuman? Missed opportunity, but...fine. I guess.

So clearly my insistence on character accuracy is a spectrum. I think I just require the basic gist, and I'm sure that scales by how significant the character is in the comics.

 

[fac]

Let me just turn that around on ya. Would you really want to see a movie called "Winter Soldier" and have the Winter Soldier be someone OTHER than Bucky Barnes? Because in the comics Bucky was the Winter Soldier. Maybe have Natasha be the Winter Soldier? Or Dum Dum Dugan? How well do you think THAT shit would play in Peoria?

Look, I never, ever, ever said that I wanted any Marvel movie or TV show to be a straight, panel by panel adaptation of the comics. I never said that. I don't think I'd want that.

I think we are not really disagreeing on this in concept.

I do feel there is a distinction between changing a character/story and streamlining a character/story which leaves some things out or adjusting for the medium.

Replacing Bucky with someone else as the Winter Soldier would be a mistake as that relationship with Steve is part of the core of the character. I agree that when comic book films change so much that they basically create their own new character and appropriate only some small aspects - that's a problem and it usually does not go well. (Like Catwoman, or the Trank FF).

But I think streamlining a character/story that leave aspects out is more than OK, especially to reflect the continuity of the films, which can't as easily pull a character out of the archives as comics do (like the old editor notes of "Warlock was last seen in Avengers #YYY") and expect people to catch on, or not have it seem like a deus ex machina. So I do think the films need to file down some of the edges of the source material and the sometimes more over-the-top comic book logic - and that often means the need to leave things out.

The one thing I don't want the MCU to do is revisit characters who had their storyline completed, for lack of a better term - I am sure the multiverse is very tempting for them to do that, but Thanos should stay in the past. I would be fine with Death at some point (if she is back) waxing poetic about how hot Thanos was for killing all those people... (I will note that this is where I think not having the "One Shots" like the start of the MCU or an anthology Disney+ series where they could circle back to things is a lost opportunity - that's where the scene you want to see could have played out.)

 

[fac]

I found time-travel Thanos to be kind of a boring final foe. He had no idea who these people were, and we'd already seen him AND his Order defeated by the Avengers.

I think the culmination in Endgame was not beating Thanos, but reversing the snap permanently. Thanos was the villain in Infinity War; Thanos was part of the obstacle/challenge in Endgame. He had a different purpose in the second film, in part because the heroes were on the offense in Endgame with their plan to reverse the snap, and Thanos was on the defense; which is a reversal from their roles in Infinity War.

 

[Schizm]

So here's a twist: was Hulk cruel to not just snap reality and everyone back with it five years? Eliminate the death of half the universe ENTIRELY. It made half the universe suffer needlessly and created endless storytelling problems for the MCU, which is a pretty big reason they feel the need to Secret Wars it.

It could have been interesting if Hulk just wiped Thanos from existence (or something) and we saw a healthy Gamora living her best life and Nebula with fabulous hair living hers. Tony could have hidden Pepper in her Rescue armor and Morgan in a suit in the Quantum Realm until after, keeping Morgan in existence.

So I posted that and then I got hit with this "Fanboy/ bad fanfic/ RUINING THE MOVIES!" bullshit. And that's exactly what it was: bullshit. Posted by someone who clearly doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about. I probably should have just ignored it.

Mods, you told me to let it go - tell him. He's now just actively attacking me weeks on.

Fac, Fletch - thank you for understanding what I was saying about adaptation and supporting the convo around the idea.

 

[AceofKnaves]

So here's a twist: was Hulk cruel to not just snap reality and everyone back with it five years? Eliminate the death of half the universe ENTIRELY. It made half the universe suffer needlessly and created endless storytelling problems for the MCU, which is a pretty big reason they feel the need to Secret Wars it.

That wasn’t Hulk’s call: it was Tony’s complete and unilateral mandate that absolutely nothing be changed, he was VERY clear that that was the condition of his involvement and yet another example of what a shitty selfish asshole he is.

 

[Ru1977]

Letting his very real daughter cease to exist? I totally get your stance on Tony most of the time but I can't fault him for wanting to prevent that.

 

[AceofKnaves]

Letting his very real daughter cease to exist? I totally get your stance on Tony most of the time but I can't fault him for wanting to prevent that.

I mean, it’s more pedestrian selfishness than some of his “what’s wrong with you dude?” moments, but it’s his pattern. And it’s drastically evil for him to withhold his necessary involvement, regardless of “why”. Billions of lives are at stake. His family is NOT a balance of that. A real hero would dive in and do the right thing regardless of cost. And a moral person would consider whether his daughter was a *result* of the circumstances of the Snap, and therefore his entire “happy family” was built directly on the graves of billions.
Asshole.

Also “my personal satellite family is more important than saving tons of people from mass death” is actually a pet peeve of mine in *real life*. “I gotta take care of my own” is not acceptable to me: we have a greater responsibility than just to our immediate associates and assets.
But that’s real life.

 

[Ru1977]

I dunno.... it's kinda how we're wired, to protect your children above all else. And yes, it's exceptional to put the good of the majority above that. I still can't fault him though, like at all. Sure he could have done the quantum thing schizm suggested, I'm sure the writers could have taken a moment of screentime to lay that out or whatever. I dunno.... it is what it is. Tony didn't actively kill billions, let alone to have a happy family. he and Pepper may have had a child regardless, but I can't see how that's really cause and effect there. He did everything he could in the moment to prevent a horrendous tragedy, then did his best to move on and be happy when he saw no other option. When presented with that option, he solved it but didn't want to give up a perfectly innocent person who was the most important one in his life. If he was truly a selfish asshole, he would have said no all the way and just stayed home with his family.

And I'm sorry, I'm definitely selfish in the same way when it comes to my kids.

 

[AceofKnaves]

Tony didn't actively kill billions

He absolutely did!
Or at least however many *enslaved* beings he willfully snapped out of existence when he had the power to do literally anything else.
Even his final instinct was for selfish mass-murder.
Asshole.

Tony is the ultimate “freedom and happiness for me, not necessarily for thee, but I GOT MINE!” guy.

 

[Ru1977]

Ah man. Point to you, I guess. Yes, he killed however many enslaved beings. Wiped them out of existence, in a moment when he didn't have a shitload of time to really dwell on the severity of his decision. In the heat of battle, where he is battered and exhausted, knowing if he doesn't act quickly he is likely to get the stones yanked once more, he reflexively made the first call that sprang to mind, 'get rid of them all'. Maybe had he a few more minutes to consider everything, he could have zapped them to being marooned on a world where they all breathed hugs among the marshmallow trees, I dunno. Again, I can see your arguments most of the time, but I still don't fault Tony for this one.

 

[AceofKnaves]

the first call that sprang to mind

Yep, that’s precisely my point.
The “first call that sprang to mind” is mass slaughter? Yeah, that’s no hero. That’s not even a decent person.

Oh but he has *plenty* of time to come up with some jackass macho-swagger “final line” as a fuck-you. Maybe use that mighty brain for more than cowboy suicide. Asshole.

 

[Ru1977]

I accept I'm not a decent person either then, because getting rid of everyone would have been the first thing I thought of too. In real life, yes, I have to remind myself not to do violence. In those circumstances (in the middle of a battle with death and destruction EVERYWHERE, against seemingly unstoppable foes, while exhausted and injured, with the asshole who said there is only ONE possible way to stop all of this making eye contact with you as if to say "make it count"), yeah.... I wouldn't be a hero either.

 

[AceofKnaves]

wouldn't be a hero either.

That is fair, and human.

This is supposed to be a story about heroes, and not real life, though. If I want to see selfish jerks being destructive and awful, I can just open the associated press app.