Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

If you don't like Ragnarok because of the way it bastardized Skurge/Simonson's Thor, I get it. I don't count that against MCU films anymore. I don't think Infinity War/Endgame are good adaptations of Infinity Gauntlet, but they're great in their own right.
 
I think there are movies that are just crowd pleasers, and movies that are absolutely not for everyone, and Ragnarok is one of those ones that is not for everyone. I totally get folks who love it, totally get folks who hate it. I really loved it when it first came out, but somewhere between then and now I got really sick of Taika's schtick, it's just not for me. Sort of like how people have a strong aversion to certain writers or artists in comics. (Doesn't help that I reread Jason Aaron's Thor run since then and there's a tonal dissonance and a half.)

I also got very much over Gunn's schtick for a while, too, so I was holding my breath on Superman, but with what everyone's saying about it, it sounds like he reined in the Gunnisms that put me off GOTG after a while and I'm going to like it. (I actually think both he and Taika have this thing where they, I believe, are genuine, empathetic people, but sometimes in their stories they feel the need to put on a defensive veneer of JUST KIDDING irreverent snark that just makes me tired. The older I get the more I just don't have much patience for people who are afraid to be sincere.)
 
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docsilence said:
... but sometimes in their stories they feel the need to put on a defensive veneer of JUST KIDDING irreverent snark that just makes me tired. The older I get the more I just don't have much patience for people who are afraid to be sincere.
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Yep, that's my issue as well. It is more than not treating Skurge well, I could live with that, but I was trying to contrast the epic sincerity of Simonson's take (at times, he could be silly with Frog Thor) and where he took Skurge's character with the tone of the last two Thor films which never would have even tried that type of sequence.

@Fletch, in his rewatch thread, has just gotten to this, and says: "at the same time never misses an opportunity to undercut its own drama...." and "....his decision to turn into the Hulk to save the Asgardians. He was basically sacrificing himself for them. But, because this movie can't let you feel anything, it's interrupted by the gag of him just splatting on the bridge."

I don't need the Thor films to be downers and wallowing in suffering or overly sentimental, but let the drama and emotion happen.

But I want to be clear, I don't hate the last two Thor films but feel like if some of the silliness had been reigned in it would have been much better.
 
Yeah, I actually think guys like Taika are really skilled filmmakers, but it's that fear of sincerity that just bores me now. And like I said, I actually laughed my arse off at Ragnarok, I thought that was a hoot, but I think maybe because they rode that wave into the next film even harder that it made the first one worse for me. But also I know a lot of people who need that level of snark and irreverence to just get by in this hellhole of a world, so if that's your thing, more power to ya. I swear I wish I could laugh more these days. (I mean I made a joke that everything I'd bookmarked on Netflix was sad or angry the other day and my partner turns to me and goes OH REALLY? NO KIDDING?")
 
Over in the Superman movie discussion, @TheSameIdiot called Superman an "altruism fantasy" and it's such a great descriptor that applies to a lot of what I look for in hero movies these days. Maybe when I was younger, it was exciting to see someone be a dick and win, but middle aged me really wants to see people get ahead by doing the right thing. There isn't nearly enough of that in the world right now. I think that's why MCU Cap, who defies writing norms by having an unchanging personal code and lack of real growth, holds his value to me in movies long after Tony Stark learned the power of sacrifice two or three times.

Also, like @fac said, I've been plugging along in my Infinity Saga rewatch in another Lounge thread (thanks for the plug!) and seeing them all in a clump really highlights when trends take hold and how the occasional wrong lesson was taken from another movie's success. I promise you, Thor: Ragnarok, Guardians of the Galaxy was not a surprise success because they told jokes.
 
Fletch said:
Over in the Superman movie discussion, @TheSameIdiot called Superman an "altruism fantasy" and it's such a great descriptor that applies to a lot of what I look for in hero movies these days. Maybe when I was younger, it was exciting to see someone be a dick and win, but middle aged me really wants to see people get ahead by doing the right thing. There isn't nearly enough of that in the world right now. I think that's why MCU Cap, who defies writing norms by having an unchanging personal code and lack of real growth, holds his value to me in movies long after Tony Stark learned the power of sacrifice two or three times.

Also, like @fac said, I've been plugging along in my Infinity Saga rewatch in another Lounge thread (thanks for the plug!) and seeing them all in a clump really highlights when trends take hold and how the occasional wrong lesson was taken from another movie's success. I promise you, Thor: Ragnarok, Guardians of the Galaxy was not a surprise success because they told jokes.
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Altruism fantasy is such a great term. I can't remember if I mentioned it in this thread already, but on that superhero author panel I was on Saturday the idea of superheroes as a power fantasy came up and I said it's a power fantasy if your power fantasy is HELPING PEOPLE and I think that's the hill I'll die on. Grimdark superheroes are sort of a meta-storytelling version of the genre, but at its core... you wear a shield to take hits for everyone else. You put a suit of armor around the world. You exercise great responsibility with your great power. You dress up like a bat so no kid has to be an orphan of violence again. You wear a devil costume to be a conscience against the unconscionable. You pick up a weapon from the Paleolithic era and fight alongside gods and monsters so your kids have a world to grow up in. There really is a through line that sticks.
 
docsilence said:
I really loved it when it first came out, but somewhere between then and now I got really sick of Taika's schtick
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In my defense, my MCU rewatch was in January/February 2021. It was mid-pandemic and I think I've changed a lot since then. The second Trump win changed something in me irrevocably.

I also got sick of Taika's schtick around then.
docsilence said:
(Doesn't help that I reread Jason Aaron's Thor run since then and there's a tonal dissonance and a half.)
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I love the first half of Aaron's Thor run. (Eventually I felt it went on way too long and lost considerable steam.) I don't think it would work on film, at least not in the jokey MCU.
docsilence said:
I also got very much over Gunn's schtick for a while, too, so I was holding my breath on Superman, but with what everyone's saying about it, it sounds like he reined in the Gunnisms that put me off GOTG after a while and I'm going to like it.
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Speaking of learning the wrong lessons, while I like GOTG2 and 3, I don't think either is as good as the first. To me, that was because Gunn leaned into the least important elements of GOTG1. GOTG2 has far too much shout-comedy and GOTG3 didn't fully click with me on an emotional level.
docsilence said:
(I actually think both he and Taika have this thing where they, I believe, are genuine, empathetic people, but sometimes in their stories they feel the need to put on a defensive veneer of JUST KIDDING irreverent snark that just makes me tired. The older I get the more I just don't have much patience for people who are afraid to be sincere.)
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This is my big issue with the MCU now. I constantly think of this excellent video essay on sincere emotions in Hollywood vs. anime, though for the purposes of this discussion, you can just watch the excerpt on Brave New World:

Fletch said:
Maybe when I was younger, it was exciting to see someone be a dick and win, but middle aged me really wants to see people get ahead by doing the right thing.
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Agreed. I find it totally exhausting to watch them win in film/TV when they're doing just fine in the real world.
 
I get the Ragnarok love, honestly. It's a light, breezy, feel-good time. As great as the Avengers movies are, they get progressively more dour and epic and emotional as they go along. If I want something just fun and campy, Ragnarok is a great time.
 
While I enjoyed most of Ragnarok, I hated with an absolute passion when Thor screamed like a girl when he was about to get his hair cut.
 
I'd argue that Ragnarok itself isn't the problem, it's the attempt to recreate the humor and fun of Ragnarok in subsequent movies. It was a tricky balance of humor and heart to manage, the kind that you only really get right once as a bit of a fluke. I'd say the movie(s) that managed to replicate the tone of their respective first film (I know Ragnarok wasn't the 1st Thor movie, but I'm using it as a starting point) best would be the Guardians movies, and even those switched it up just enough so it didn't feel like they were just trying to one-up the previous film.
 
My MCU Top 5, probably:

1. Winter Soldier
2. Infinity War
3. Black Panther
4. Ragnarok
5. Civil War

It's so crazy how everything that clicked for me in Ragnarok unclicked in Love & Thunder, an entry I was not a fan of.
 
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Hi-Fi said:
It's so crazy how everything that clicked for me in Ragnarok unclicked in Love & Thunder, an entry I was not a fan of.
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Y'know, I think that's it for me - I had zero hate for Ragnarok when it first came out, thought it was a breath of fresh air. But the L&T caused me to reconsider it in a new light. If the sequel never happened it'd be in my top ten still. (GOTG2 did that to me with GOTG1, which I friggin' loved. And I still haven't watched GOTG3, but that' because I have a thing about animal cruelty and I know Gunn pulls NO PUNCHES in that area to tell a story so I'm just avoiding it.)
 
IIRC, all the animals in GOTG3 are uncanny valley CGI creatures. It makes it easier to swallow.

I have an unfortunate tendency of calling things that are okay or underwhelming "bad." Love and Thunder is no such case. I think I gave it a 2.5/5 on Letterboxd. It's straight-up bad.
 
TheSameIdiot said:
IIRC, all the animals in GOTG3 are uncanny valley CGI creatures. It makes it easier to swallow.

I have an unfortunate tendency of calling things that are okay or underwhelming "bad." Love and Thunder is no such case. I think I gave it a 2.5/5 on Letterboxd. It's straight-up bad.
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GOTG 3 is an amazing movie! So many feelings!

L&T is one of the worst Marvel movies. "Let's give Thor one of his scariest villains and then throw in a bunch of stupid humor moments that don't fit in at all. Oh, and while were at it, let's not show Gorr killing any Gods outside of his first scene. We'll just tell people he's a bad-ass." Bloody Brilliant. :rolleyes:
 
I still enjoy Ragnarok, but did feel they took enjoyable parts to their extreme in L&T. Korg especially was someone I found funny in Ragnarok but didn't enjoy at all in L&T.

For the record though... I did find the goats funny every time. I know I'm alone there.

My top five at this point... Probably:
Iron Man
Avengers
Homecoming
Endgame
Thunderbolts.
 
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