Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

Yeah, it gets deep into the weeds there. I have professional investment in it since I literally make money from writing superhero stories, used to see the industry really WANT redeemable / relatable villains, and then started giving every villain an apology tour. Though MCU actually hasn't been a prime example of that. We didn't get a deep explanation for Red Skull or Justin Hammer or whoever. (Zemo did, but I think that made Zemo's a BETTER story. "You took everything from me, so I shall take everything from you." Some mythological level revenge in that arc.) And even the Thunderbolts don't try to redeem everyone. John's still a tool of a human being.
Damien said:
Loki's redemption arc was really good, but I actually like it for another reason; I think it plays on the above. I think it plays off the idea that the Gods - supernatural, super-human beings, do not operate by normal human morality. Just as they don't do in the myths and sagas. Loki -can- murder a bunch of people and try to subjugate entire planets and within the context of his people and his culturally morality - he's not necessarily EVIL, capital E. He's just kinda.. existing. He's 'being Loki' - in all that entails. The ability to joke and be mischievous one day, and violently suppress a human population the next day is part and parcel to what makes them so distinctly not us. And that, in fact, Loki's redemption arc wasn't about becoming more good. Loki's redemption arc, just like Thor's in Thor's first movie, was about becoming more HUMAN.

Galactus needs to be treated as a force of nature. He should be the villain only in the way that a tornado is the villain in Twister. As above, he should be beyond human understanding of morality and ethics. That's a tough movie to make, I think, because the good guys need to mostly play off each other and how to avoid disaster, rather than how to beat the bad guy.
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Agree on Loki. He isn't a living human being - he's an IDEA. And making him evolve from the God of Lies to the God of Stories felt like a goddamned gift to storytellers. It was a thank you for everyone staying along for the ride of his journey. In a way, Loki's story is about an Idea evolving past what the world demanded that idea be to become something else.

I really hope they find a way to make Galactus terrifying. I think it's possible, cos we've seen it before - maybe I'm just nostalgic, but Unicron was absolutely fucking terrifying in the Transformers animated film, that relentless force of consuming destruction.
 
Re: Galactus
I've heard that he's treated like a Lovecraftian horror, and that really upped my interest in this movie. It's such an obvious interpretation, but something I've never seen nor even thought before.

Broadly, I still think we want understandable villain motivations, just maybe not always sympathetic. An understandable motivation is all that elevates Ronan over Malekith.

However, I do still want the occasional actual sympathetic villain, but save it for the big names, like Thanos and Dr. Doom, where half the story is that he's not wrong, but at what price. I, fer instance, would not have made Killmonger so sympathetic.
 
That bit about Galactus in the spoiler tag - love that concept. Hope they do something like that.

Doom's an interesting case. He's usually most compelling when he's a villain because he thinks he's the only one who can do it right - he's not selfish so much as he has no faith in anyone other than himself. And often that means he keeps his kingdom perfect for his own people but to hell with everyone else, so he is a hero to some people and a monster to others. I almost put him in some kind of anti-hero category. (Doom could carry a movie instead of being an antagonist, I think.)

Killmonger is such an interesting case too - when the villain's arguments are so compelling you've got to have him do things like kill his girlfriend by shooting her in the face to make it clear he's not the one you should be pulling for. And years later, audiences still go: well, he has a point.

Although my favorite MCU "he has a point" villain argument is Ultron, who spent ten minutes on the internet and decided the best thing he could do for the universe was wipe out humanity, because who hasn't had THAT thought at least once.
 
Fletch said:
However, I do still want the occasional actual sympathetic villain, but save it for the big names, like Thanos and Dr. Doom, where half the story is that he's not wrong, but at what price. I, fer instance, would not have made Killmonger so sympathetic.
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I would draw a distinction here. I think Thanos had understandable motivations, but wasn't sympathetic. If for no other reason than 'I'm just going to wipe out 50% of all life in the galaxy indiscriminately' is a fuck-stupid idea even based on his own motivations, so it's hard to sympathize with him wanting to do it.
Killmonger was a sympathetic villain largely because... I mean... he was right. Everything he said was right, and the only thing that makes him the bad guy is what he did with his investment in acting according to his beliefs. Like Doc said while I'm typing this; they had to go out of their way to make Killmonger do outrageously evil things just so we wouldn't root for him. That was a really interesting case where even the movie itself acknowledged that he did wrong while being right, and the hero had to embrace some of the villain's beliefs in the end. That movie would be a top tier film if it weren't for one of the worst CGI final fights in modern memory.

I find Thanos actually more sympathetic in the comics. Who hasn't murdered entire solar systems to impress their crush?

And that idea about Galactus sounds absolutely perfect. I wonder how it'll fit in with what we've seen of the film's tone so far. That has me WAY more interested in that film, as I actually fuckin' hate the Fantastic Four and had no real interest in watching the movie until now.


docsilence said:
Doom's an interesting case. He's usually most compelling when he's a villain because he thinks he's the only one who can do it right - he's not selfish so much as he has no faith in anyone other than himself. And often that means he keeps his kingdom perfect for his own people but to hell with everyone else, so he is a hero to some people and a monster to others. I almost put him in some kind of anti-hero category. (Doom could carry a movie instead of being an antagonist, I think.)
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Doom is literally Vlad III 'Dracula.' Small Eastern European country? Check. Ruler that is partially feared and partially beloved by those he rules over because he keeps peace and prosperity but at the cost of an iron fist (literally?)? Check. Cool suit of armor? Check. Does absolutely unspeakable things in the name of protecting his land? Check. They literally just slapped magic powers and a less cool name on Vlad Dracula. And I love it.
 
Yeah, MCU Thanos's math didn't work out. I actually find "This megalomaniac is literally in love with the embodiment of death" to be such a metal, ridiculous concept for a villain that it works better than "I couldn't do basic math and think "y not double supply instead of halving demand for universe's resources?" Death cults are terrifying because they're so committed to such an unreasonable action.

I pitched a script for a F4 reboot a million years ago where instead of jumping right to Galactus they start with Annihilus - give us an unstoppable, terrifying, ALIEN intelligence bent on destruction to start with, and introduce Doom as a rival as part of the first story to give him time to breathe, because Doom deserves time. I think that was the last time I pitched for an IP I didn't own though. Never give Marvel or DC your best ideas, or at least not an idea you can't do on your own without 'em.

Man, Killmonger really is a unique script issue, isn't he. Especially because unlike a villain who might outshine a milquetoast hero, T'Challa was a fantastic lead character, too. I wonder at what point they had to be like "look, we gotta have this guy kill some defenseless people in there somewhere or the audience will never understand why he's the villain."
 
docsilence said:
I pitched a script for a F4 reboot a million years ago where instead of jumping right to Galactus they start with Annihilus
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I don't run in those circles at all, so I'm just doing fanfic, but my FF franchise was-

Self-congratulatory bullshit you can skip without consequence:
Fantastic Four vs. Skrulls
Dr. Doom solo movie
Fantastic Four vs. Galactus
Silver Surfer solo movie
Fantastic Four vs. Dr. Doom

I even blogged about it - holy shit 10 years ago!
maybemachine.blogspot.com

Fantastic Four movie me-boot

I finally took the plunge and went to see the recent, Josh Trank-directed 'Fantastic Four' movie. It was pretty much just as bad as people h...
maybemachine.blogspot.com maybemachine.blogspot.com

I'm a huge Fantastic Four fan. I even enjoyed the Johnny married a Skrull era of the 90s.


docsilence said:
Never give Marvel or DC your best ideas, or at least not an idea you can't do on your own without 'em.
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I mean, why not? Especially if you can't do it without them.
 
Fletch said:
I mean, why not? Especially if you can't do it without them.
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Just all the horror stories about how writers and artists will create a story arc or new character and never be fairly compensated for it. All the artists and writers who need GoFundMes to pay for their end of life care while Marvel or DC actively has a blockbuster film in the theaters as the creators are dying. Happens a few times a year. Definitely pitch your F4 script, because they can be a hell of a springboard to work with... But if you've got a banger of a story about a sci-fi family with cool / weird powers that would work as an original IP and doesn't NEED the F4...)
 
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Exactly. One of my brothers in law was telling me a very dark Batman idea he had and he was really excited about it, but pitched it to me in great detail because he wanted me to write it for him. I told him, first off, I have plenty of my own stuff to write, but secondly... He has such passion, he clearly should write it. And it was very unlike Batman stuff I'm familiar with, so I told him just make it your own original thing! I know he won't, but hopefully he listens. Not like he has a contact with DC or anything, but writing his own original story? Way easier and more satisfying.
 
Say, does anybody want to form a writing group here? I've been without one for a while and haven't actually finished anything since.
 
Fletch said:
I, fer instance, would not have made Killmonger so sympathetic.
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Curious what made him sympathetic - the flashback? Sterling K. Brown's ubiquitous tears?
Damien said:
Who hasn't murdered entire solar systems to impress their crush?
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Phoenix. She was just hungry.
docsilence said:
Yeah, MCU Thanos's math didn't work out. I actually find "This megalomaniac is literally in love with the embodiment of death" to be such a metal, ridiculous concept for a villain that it works better than "I couldn't do basic math and think "y not double supply instead of halving demand for universe's resources?" Death cults are terrifying because they're so committed to such an unreasonable action.
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You've just ruined Infinity War. I never thought to just invert his math like this.

Thanos wasn't right after all.
 
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