Harvinger Studios, Savage Crucible

[FuzzyBlueDemon]

Just saying...

Hell another version of Elric, why not?

I would absolutely buy all of those!

 

[GrumpyMatt]

Y'all... y'all; it's a whole new undiscovered country for them *and* Moorcock/Whelan/their Agents. Give them a day or two to take in the view and appreciate the new bigger scale of things and they'll most likely get back to us with a new decision.

Exactly.

Edit: Nevermind if you saw the original post, wave 2 was a split shipment that was sold in August and this past January.

 

[Damien]

but Savage Crucible has already done reissues. This year.

No, they haven't. Savage Crucible has never done a re-issue.

The items you're talking about from Wave 2 were a split production. It was the same run. They didn't go back into production on the figures so they could 're-issue' them in January. They were super up front about this the entire time, that the first sale would be limited numbers and KS backers, and the bulk of the production run would not be available for several more months (ended up being Jan of the following year). But it was one production run, essentially produced at one time (I believe the first sale items were flown over, rather than brought in by boat, but don't quote me on that).

In either case, they have been crystal clear that nothing will be put back into production once it sells out, and so far they have absolutely stuck to that.

 

[Cold Blue]

I managed to grab Elric last night. As a lurker I saw a post on here a while back saying his rerun was only for their overflow not already bought from pre-orders so I figured he'd sell out very fast. I was refreshing the site at 9pm sharp, put him and the blind box in my cart and it briefly delayed then I nabbed him. I refreshed the site like 35 seconds later on the phone with my best friend and he was gone - so I think he sold out in literally slightly over one minute. The dungeon set and Frazetta's Warrior were gone within 10 minutes too along with the original lizard men and viking guys if they had them? I assume so.

I had asked on Instagram on their last hype post and they replied saying they don't disclose stock during sales. Which is kind of dumb since saying he's limited supply or not isn't really outlandish. I think they really shot themselves in the leg not keeping the door cracked for themselves with a "we don't plan on rereleasing him but we're open to reconsider if the demand exists", because now if they do it's going to look like they lied to trick people into buying. I've read a few places the owner is kind of an egomaniacal asshole though so if that's true I guess it tracks.

I've got to be honest though, from a visual perspective as this will be my first time / owning and handling their figures. I think a good bit of what they make is really overhyped.. their male characters all have this weird purposefully ugly intentionally desexualized look that makes me think of WoW art style. Some if the vague cartoonishness of the armor does too. So much so I'd practically guarantee someone on their design team was a huge fan if that game. Its so weird too because I don't think I've seen anyone mention it, either.

 

[Damien]

their male characters all have this weird purposefully ugly intentionally desexualized look that makes me think of WoW art style.

I don't know what this means at all.

Some if the vague cartoonishness of the armor does too

Maybe a little cartoonish sometimes? But I don't see that as a WoW thing so much as a 'this is generically what a LOT of fantasy art looks like' thing. If you spend a lot of time looking at fantasy art, you've probably seen loads of things generally analogous to what SC is doing. I don't think anyone's ever accused them of breaking new ground in the design of the figures, though. Most people seem to accept these as just really nice action figures of all of your favorite fantasy tropes.
As long as your favorite fantasy tropes are armored lizard dudes, crazy fish people, and barbarians, I guess. But it's a start.

 

[Dek]

And they don't want to do reissues. This is not their source of income. Rob Post doesn't make his money from Savage Crucible. Frankie Frazetta and two of the employees told me this. This is their hobby. They like scarcity, as individuals they like getting rare things. Their whole business model is based on this.

Also another production run would be 1000's of toys before they get the price breaks they may need/ want. It may not be cost effective to make more, and you assume they will sell out. 10 guys on a forum is not a good sample size to gauge demand.

Also they have said no other Elric's. They have the license for three Moorcock (More Cock) characters, and have said they are doing 1 Elric. I asked about other versions at Zolocon and they said no plans. Don't set your expectations for one. Moorcock (More Cock) wanted that armor and those swords. They asked about different looks he didn't want them. I don't know of him well enough to know if he'd change his mind.

 

[Damien]

I don't know of him well enough to know if he'd change his mind.

I think he's spoken in the past about how his favorite image of Elric in his head is fully armored up. So I imagine Moorcock's position was largely based on 'if I only ever see one action figure of Elric, I want it to be this and this SPECIFICALLY.' Now that he has that, IF they can go back and negotiate to make another Elric, he'd probably be a lot more amenable to letting them do a different version based on other artwork.

And they don't want to reissues. This is not their source of income. Rob Post doesn't make his money from Savage Crucible. Frankie Frazetta and two of the employees told me this. This is their hobby. They like scarcity, as individuals they like getting rare things. Their whe business model is based on this.

I don't get why anyone can't understand this. They have done everything but tattoo it to peoples' foreheads at this point.

Also another production run would be 1000's of toys before they get the price breaks they may need/ want. It may not be cost effective to make more, and you assume they will sell out. 10 guys on a forum is not a good sample size to gauge demand.

I'd be surprised if they were even able to do a production run of 5k. It's more likely their factory requires between 8-12k as a MOQ. Can they sell another 8k Elrics? MAYBE. Maybe not. But more importantly; they don't seem to want to. Neither from a business standpoint of who they are as a company, nor from a risk perspective of 'maybe not.' So... it is what it is. I REALLY feel for people that didn't get him. He's an amazing figure. I've gone on record that I fucking hate their business model as much as I hate their attitude toward international collectors.
But hating it and thinking you can will it to be different just by yelling 'nuh uh' are two different things.

 

[Cold Blue]

Maybe a little cartoonish sometimes? But I don't see that as a WoW thing so much as a 'this is generically what a LOT of fantasy art looks like' thing. If you spend a lot of time looking at fantasy art, you've probably seen loads of things generally analogous to what SC is doing. I don't think anyone's ever accused them of breaking new ground in the design of the figures, though. Most people seem to accept these as just really nice action figures of all of your favorite fantasy tropes.
As long as your favorite fantasy tropes are armored lizard dudes, crazy fish people, and barbarians, I guess. But it's a start.

From what I've seen and been told the big draw for them is being extremely nicely articulated, well made and baked in kitbash support. Which explains to me why they've gotten so popular. I'm excited to see whether I think Elric is worth the hype in hand.

 

[fac]

I'd be surprised if they were even able to do a production run of 5k. It's more likely their factory requires between 8-12k as a MOQ.

Why do you think that they would need that production level? Many smaller companies coming out of Kickstarters seem to be doing production runs lower than 10K, and that is from "scratch", while in in a case like this the molds, paint, packaging has already been developed and tested.

I'm curious if they even made 10K of these to start with.

 

[Dek]

From what I learned collecting 3rd Party Transformers, 3000 units is where the price breaks start to happen, I'm sure there is other milestones too. I also know Elric was finished for some time and the hold up for months was the cloth goods. During that time many retailers upped their orders significantly for the demand. That probably cut into what they had for their shop sale.

Again I warn people don't sit on Death Dealer. His pre-order number were bigger than Elric and his sell through was larger too. Frankie Frazetta was very proud of that because the Elric numbers were so impressive to him, (I got the impression Elric was Savage Crucible's largest production run yet.)

They also might not have a ton of money to just do production runs. Death Dealer's War Horse was only made because Fish Toys invited Rob Post to the factory and through conversation was offered to jump into their production run because the price break would actually make producing the War Horse financially viable, but he only had hours to decide. The War Horse is 90% made and is stored at the factory right now. They've said that. They are waiting until December where they can run the molds and produce the final head and the saddle and bridle.

Remember you don't pay for the number of units, you pay for the time it take to run the molds. When you have higher production runs you run the molds longer so you get price breaks, because you don't need to stop, swap steel molds that take a crane to lift and put in place, and start the production cycle again. That extra man power isn't needed so you don't pay as much for bigger production runs that take longer to manufacture.

I also suspect Savage Crucible isn't their best selling line. I bet it's the Collegiate Athletes. People love fantasy, people will die for college football.

 

[Dek]

Why do you think that they would need that production level? Many smaller companies coming out of Kickstarters seem to be doing production runs lower than 10K, and that is from "scratch", while in in a case like this the molds, paint, packaging has already been developed and tested.

I'm curious if they even made 10K of these to start with.

Rob Post also had a half million dollars in molds made BEFORE the KickStarter even began, made with money from his own pocket. This might be a different situation.

 

[JakeEkiss]

I think a good bit of what they make is really overhyped.. their male characters all have this weird purposefully ugly intentionally desexualized look that makes me think of WoW art style.

I will say that until I had Elric in hand I was not impressed by the line at all, and I got in on the preorder specifically because I assumed Elric was niche and I might never get another figure of him.

I can't explain what it is, but these figures look way less cartoony and weirdly proportioned in hand than they do in photos. There's definitely some cartoonishness there, but I think it's much less WoW and more the same art that the WoW artists were also inspired by, especially given the offerings from the company so far. These are old school sword and sorcery geeks.

They like scarcity, as individuals they like getting rare things. Their whe business model is based on this.

Right, which is the bit I find annoying. I don't think there's value in owning a rare thing just because it's rare. That feels a little gross to me.

But hating it and thinking you can will it to be different just by yelling 'nuh uh' are two different things.

100%. I'm griping about it, but clearly it's not stopping me from buying from them nor them from continuing to do it. I just think it's a bad take and it creates these scarcity situations that I'm not a fan of. I'll live, and on a long enough timeline I might stop buying.

They also might not have a ton of money to just do production runs.

Though that's not an issue if you simply do min-order threshold pre-orders. That's why the BBWS guys do those with the Santa figures, so they don't overproduce. The drawback on those is people can cancel at any time. If they collected the money at the end of the preorder window they'd have the line paid for and fewer folks would miss out. There will always be late comers and at some point the line won't have enough new fans to sustain another run, but it's not like you're locked into one since run forever.

I also suspect Savage Crucible isn't their best selling line. I bet it's the Collegiate Athletes. People love fantasy, people will die for college football.

I would love to know what the spread actually is. College football is more popular culturally, but is it actually more popular among action figure fans in that way? Maybe it is, but I'd love to see the numbers.

Also they have said no other Elric's. They have the license for three Moorcock (More Cock) characters, and have said they are doing 1 Elric. I asked about other versions at Zolocon and they said no plans.

I think I may have read that before and just forgot. But yeah, bummer. I think an emperor Elric would be really cool and allow them to design a more lithe body for their line at the same time.

 

[Damien]

Why do you think that they would need that production level? Many smaller companies coming out of Kickstarters seem to be doing production runs lower than 10K, and that is from "scratch", while in in a case like this the molds, paint, packaging has already been developed and tested.

The molds and packaging and all that already existing isn't really relevant to how many of an item gets produced.

I should have used more specific language - the 8-12k thing was my speculation based on some assumptions and 'I heard this' or 'I heard that' stuff. It's not so much that they -can't- make figures with a lower MOQ, but that SC needs to be hitting a certain MOQ to get the pricing from the factory that would put their figure pricing where it is.

I've heard some production numbers (which may very well not be true, although I trust the sources to be reasonably well-informed) for different companies and different product lines and it really seems that the production number has a big impact. But now that I'm thinking about it, I suppose Harvinger/Rob could be doing the McFarlane thing of keeping the prices down just by taking a smaller cut, rather than by getting a better price at the factory with larger production runs.

So I could totally be wrong!

Although, I think my argument still stands even with a production run of 3000 units. You gotta prove you can sell no less than 3000 units or why bother.

I also suspect Savage Crucible isn't their best selling line. I bet it's the Collegiate Athletes. People love fantasy, people will die for college football.

Except, historically, sports toys don't necessarily do gangbusters. Are there loads of college football fans eager to buy super-articulated action figures of 'generic guy from X team?' (They're not actually licensing actual players, are they?)
I doubt it. I imagine Collegiate Athletes is way more just a vanity project for Rob and he's happy to do it for scale as long as he gets to play with them. That's the impression I got, at least. I'd be curious to hear even a rumor on the sales numbers for those.

Right, which is the bit I find annoying. I don't think there's value in owning a rare thing just because it's rare. That feels a little gross to me.

Agreed.

100%. I'm griping about it, but clearly it's not stopping me from buying from them nor them from continuing to do it. I just think it's a bad take and it creates these scarcity situations that I'm not a fan of. I'll live, and on a long enough timeline I might stop buying.

Also agreed. It pisses me off like crazy how they choose to do things. But as long as these figures keep selling out, none of our voices on the subject mean a damn thing. If that results in the line just not being fun to collect; then I won't.

 

[jayjonah]

I believe they cautioned that people who place multiple orders will have their orders cancelled. So... we'll see, I guess.

I wanted to come back around to this. You were right, I received a cancelation this morning for one of my blind box komodo dragons, lol. If they are still up in a couple weeks, I may try again.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

Am I misremembering them saying they'd do more Elrics? I thought they said other looks were on the table depending on sales.

I am sympathetic though, it has put them in a bit of a tough spot with two vocal sides - one side upset they can't get your product, one side upset if others can get your product.

Not to sound too much like Damien, but one side is full of assholes. Fuck 'em.

They're not stupid enough to leave $500,000 on the table out of a principle rooted in marketing strategy appropriate for a boutique toy company.

We're going to find out.

If they wind up reissuing Elric in a charcoal gray colorway, great. I'll happily eat my words. But for now, they're taking a Mezco-style hardline stance. I have no reason not to believe them.