General Marvel Legends

Damien said:
I'd still say it's unnecessary. I don't actually believe that you can't sell a commentator, manager, or referee figure single-carded. It's something wrestling fans are always asking for. Like, don't tell me a two-pack of Paul Bearer and Classic Mankind -wouldn't- sell. Of course it would, right?

Same thing in a comic book line. I don't think you -can't- sell civilians. I think they choose not to even try. Which is weird considering how many truly boring characters/designs we -do- get.
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I think that - while not the same as comic civilians in terms of expected interest - we can thank single MCU releases like Ross and Woo for souring Hasbro on trying.
 
Enforcer said:
I'm thinking BAF is the only way we ever get figures of say... Box. They wouldn't do deluxe for someone so random. Not sure that trade off is worth it to some... many?
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That's the only reason I'm not advocating for abolishing the BaF model. If that's how we get some of the types of characters we'd never otherwise get, then so be it. If it's a character I want, great. If I only want a few in the wave and have no interest in the BaF itself, even better.
 
Lucid Silverback said:
HA!! I'm not sure if you're aware but, that voice you're hearing ...is actually MINE! Admittedly, that was one of my many 'constructive' contributions to the discourse back in the day when X-23 was originally released. Not only did I have no idea who she was or why she was included in a line branded as "Legends", but I was incensed I had to purchase her to get the Apocalypse torso and head. Looking back, I realize I absolutely leaned into the gripe a bit too hard, but my attitude has definitely evolved since then. I now welcome virtually any character be included in the line because everybody deserves their favorite character being granted the honor of becoming a Legend. However, I still detest un-themed hodgepodge BaF waves.

Sigh. I miss the good ol' days shitposting on the Fwoosh and having unhinged lunatics outright threaten me on the board and in unsolicited private messages. Good times.
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To be fair. And I have been a Laura fan since the beginning.

That figure was hot ass left on a dashboard with the windows up.
 
Thor-El said:
That's the only reason I'm not advocating for abolishing the BaF model. If that's how we get some of the types of characters we'd never otherwise get, then so be it. If it's a character I want, great. If I only want a few in the wave and have no interest in the BaF itself, even better.
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I'd argue that this logic falls apart under any scrutiny at all. There doesn't seem to be any legitimate, assessable measure of what they will or will not make if not for the BAF model. No one can even agree on which direction the model works in.


Enforcer said:
I think that - while not the same as comic civilians in terms of expected interest - we can thank single MCU releases like Ross and Woo for souring Hasbro on trying.
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Very likely. I'm glad they want to get those characters out there, but clearly they were either overproduced, incorrectly slotted into assortments, or both. And it always also goes back to.. boring characters sell fewer units. Plenty of collectors DO want them. Just like plenty of wrestling collectors want referees and managers. But not -everyone-, not the kids, not any casual collectors that just want a new Iron Man or Wolverine every so often. You want to keep the hardcore collectors happy while recognizing what percentage of the consumer-base they are. In my opinion.
 
Of course.

Did the retro carded Peter Parker sell well? I wonder if that's regarded as a success or failure. I'd love a comic Matt Murdock... I guess the MCU one peg warmed, didn't it... My comic kitbash may have to do. Once of the best parts of Marvel Legends has been the decent amount of easy part swapping. Well... just really heads... now.
 
Damien said:
I'd still say it's unnecessary. I don't actually believe that you can't sell a commentator, manager, or referee figure single-carded. It's something wrestling fans are always asking for. Like, don't tell me a two-pack of Paul Bearer and Classic Mankind -wouldn't- sell. Of course it would, right?

Same thing in a comic book line. I don't think you -can't- sell civilians. I think they choose not to even try. Which is weird considering how many truly boring characters/designs we -do- get.
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I don't know, like I certainly don't think it's impossible - but if Mattel's moved away from single-carded non-wrestlers, it feels like there has to be a reason; even Bloodline Heyman only got a 3-pack release (although in fairness they had to re-release him solo in one of their Oh I Guess People Still Want This Guy lines for Ringside, so maybe they're just being overly cautious at this point). Even the Main Event 2-pack line seemingly doesn't have managers show up anymore.

I don't know, I have to wonder if they got gun shy from a few examples like the Target Legends Heenan and Stacy Kiebler releases that reportedly pegwarmed in a lot of stores. When stuff like that does show up single-carded, it tends to be in Ringside lines now like that referee John Cone figure did.

The civilian-in-superhero line question is pretty interesting, because you're right, it hasn't been tried to any significant degree aside from the occasional MJ in Legends. Mattel at least has some sales data for non-wrestling personalities. Even if we disagree with their conclusions, they've sold these characters. (I guess we've got a number of MCU non-cape movie characters, but the recency boost for movie figures applies; movie wave stragglers getting clearanced out is no big thing.)
 
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secondwhiteline said:
I don't know, like I certainly don't think it's impossible - but if Mattel's moved away from single-carded non-wrestlers, it feels like there has to be a reason; even Bloodline Heyman only got a 3-pack release (although in fairness they had to re-release him solo in one of their Oh I Guess People Still Want This Guy lines for Ringside, so maybe they're just being overly cautious at this point). Even the Main Event 2-pack line seemingly doesn't have managers show up anymore.

I don't know, I have to wonder if they got gun shy from a few examples like the Target Legends Heenan and Stacy Kiebler releases that reportedly pegwarmed in a lot of stores. When stuff like that does show up single-carded, it tends to be in Ringside lines now like that referee John Cone figure did.

The civilian-in-superhero line question is pretty interesting, because you're right, it hasn't been tried to any significant degree aside from the occasional MJ in Legends. Mattel at least has some sales data for non-wrestling personalities. Even if we disagree with their conclusions, they've sold these characters. (I guess we've got a number of MCU non-cape movie characters, but the recency boost for movie figures applies; movie wave stragglers getting clearanced out is no big thing.)
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I think that's all a good example of Mattel actually knowing the audience, though. Multi-packs make sense for refs and managers, and it also makes sense to go to a specialty retailer like Ringside with single-carded versions. You also need to assess each character separately. Just like wrestlers, they're going to have different levels of appeal.

I'd also say that Elite-articulation (and therefore pricepoint) non-wrestlers are always a mistake. No one is begging for hyper-articulated Paul Heyman. You're just driving up the price unnecessarily.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that non-wrestlers have been successful for Mattel universally in the past. I'm saying the ones that haven't been were largely Mattel's own fault in release strategy, not because collectors don't want those characters. And the same is true for a lot of comic civilians or weirdos; you've got to figure out the right -way- to release them. Not just say 'I'm sure someone wants it' and make it a 30 dollar Ultra-Edition Walmart Exclusive FAN FIRST gold label mega-figure.
 
Enforcer said:
Only if you planned to get the whole wave anyway.
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I can appreciate that, but I expect the BaF cost must be factored-in to the overall wave budget so, the BaF figure necessarily deducts accessories, paint applications, and novel sculpting from what would/could have been included for the individual figures.
So, even if one were planning on getting the entire wave anyway, wouldn't they have been getting better quality individual figures with more accessories were the BaF to not be included? ...at least in theory?
 
Damien said:
I just don't think you're going to get that no matter how they 'innovate' or whatever we're calling not having the specific A-listers specific members want available at the specific times they think the characters should be available. Prices are going up across the board. Regular figures are pushing toward 30 bucks now. You're almost certainly not going to see a comic Hulk figure for sub-40.

Also, as I've said before, I do think people need to have a bit more perspective when talking about this. If Hasbro were making all of the core versions of popular characters available every year, they basically wouldn't make anything else. There's always some version of Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Man, hell - even Thor, on pegs. It just may not be the version you want. They're still keeping the biggest characters out there and available.
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I still think a Frankenstein-esque Jack Kirby Hulk could be made and sold for under $40, but we can agree to disagree if you'd like. I think it'd be cool to see a "The Avengers #1" Hulk in purple shorts to go with the other classic Avengers figures that have been made.

PantherCult said:
Honestly I just think you will never be satisfied with Marvel Legends. Objectively it is never going to be what you are advocating for in this post. It just won't ever be that.

And I think its dangerously naive to be pre-mythologizing what Mattel is going to do with its DC Collector line. We have no idea what kind of scope it will have - how deep it will go into the character roster. We've seen the first foray into the kids line so far, and thats fun but hardly a predictor that what fillows will be the holy grail of collectibles.

Marvel Legends has shown us very clearly what it is and what its likely to continue to be and expecting a pivot or change to something else more in tune with your individual prferences is, more likely than not, a recipe for disappointment.
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I'm not trying to sound "dangerously naive" and I sincerely apologize if that's how it sounded. And perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my post. I mean that I would like for Hasbro to not have such a large gap of years in between having a classic character made. It's been eight years since we got a sold separately Doc Ock. It's been since the 80th anniversary figures since we got classic Thor. It's been six years since we got Peter Parker and classic red-and-blue suit Spider-Man that wasn't battle damaged, from the "Maximum" series, from an alternate reality or half-symbiote covered. I'd love to see the current Retro "Secret Wars" wave include any of them, but I'm certainly not saying to have them all in the same wave. Whether you're a collector wo missed out on them the first time around due to budgetary reasons or the figures sold out, or if you're a new collector and you want to get figures of those characters, you don't want to spend $50 and up on those figures. I have never been truly satisfied with any toyline, because that's pretty much impossible. The last time I was truly excited for a "Marvel Legends" toyline was 2020's first Retro Spider-Man wave. Everyone has their own wish-list character and "why hasn't (name) been made into a figure yet" comment. I am certainly not denying I can be that guy, even though I try my best not to be. I just think if Hasbro's going to do a mini-comic wave or a Retro wave or whatever, it would be nice to see a one or two more classic versions of A-list characters for fans to add to their shelves without costing too much. Like, for example, Hasbro could make a six-figure mini-comic wave and you include classic Thor, Volcana, a Gene Colan Dracula, Diamondback, Ringmaster, and a Gil Kane/John Romita Sr. art based Spider-Man or a tiger-stipe Wolverine that's not cel-shaded or animated. That's two A-list heroes, two new female characters, a lesser-known villain with Ringmaster, and a long-requested classic villain with Dracula all in the same wave and still leaving plenty of slots in the year for new and lesser-known characters to have their turn for Hasbro's toylines. Granted, Toy Biz certainly did this too with their Marvel figures by having a few years for fans to have to wait for a new figure for characters like Captain America and the Green Goblin, but it would be nicer to not have to wait too many years in between getting a new classic character's figure. And since "Marvel Legends" is doing more sold-separately figures than before with store and Hasbro Pulse exclusives, you could just as easily include a new, first time character like Volcana as a sold-separately figure for the "Marvel Legends Series Secret Wars" toyline as you could a sold-separately classic Thor these days. Does that make sense?
 
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StuartGreen3 said:
I still think a Frankenstein-esque Jack Kirby Hulk could be made and sold for under $40, but we can agree to disagree if you'd like. I think it'd be cool to see a "The Avengers #1" Hulk in purple shorts to go with the other classic Avengers figures that have been made.
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I'd only argue that there's a difference between 'could be' and 'will be.' The issue is largely that Hasbro has found a price people are willing to pay for certain characters, formats, expressions, etc. And it's not likely that they'll deviate much from that format. Hulks are now oversize figures in a larger box with a bigger price point. That's not me saying it -should- be that way, or that there's mystical laws that cannot be broken. But rather that Hasbro has simply proved that's how they do things now.
 
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