Star Wars Movie and Streaming Series Discussion

I remember responding to some Kathleen Kennedy rant with some version of 'well, if producing some subpar movies and TV shows is the worst thing she's done, she can't be that awful'. that's more or less my feelings.

I know a lot of people aren't thrilled with how the new trilogy lacked a central creative voice, somebody who would be the trilogy's George and willing to stick it out for three movies over sixish years. I'm curious if the decision to start work on a new trilogy before nailing down stuff like that came from Disney up above or Lucasfilm/Kennedy. and if it was Kennedy's decision, like I said, making bad movies isn't the worst sin a person can commit.
 
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My impression is it came from Iger etc as they'd just spent a ton of money getting the IP and wanted to start making it back as quickly as possible. They truncated every step of production they could. Apparently she and Abrams didn't agree on the direction and supposedly he refused to cooperate with Johnson to ensure a more cohesive sequel. At the same time Abrams gave credit to Johnson for ideas he felt improved Force Awakens, so who knows? Probably multiple factors rather than one female executive.

I don't even need a single voice necessarily just an agreed upon vision. Coordination.
 
I quite liked that they made Cassian a little incompetent with the TIE; it makes perfect sense, of course- it's tech that's totally foreign to him, so he wouldn't be able to just jump in and perfectly pilot it.
When Cassian contacted Kleya, he did tell her that wasn't the model he had trained on, and was having a difficult time with it. My son pointed out the controls were similar to the Umbaran Starfighters Hardcase, Jesse and Fives flew in the Pong Krell arc of hte Clone Wars...and Cassian had similar results as them.
 
Cassian being bad at his job and it NOT being used for a laugh was great. I love this show so much. They had me cheering for Deedra for fuck's sake. And anyone that doesn't feel moved by the ending dance is a dirty liar.
 
I think the TIE fighter scene being in the extended trailer is fair game to talk about yeah? I found myself thinking "this is me EVERY time I try to learn how to fly a new vehicle in a video game" and found it the most relatable moment in Star Wars in ages. Loved that it was there for tension and not for laughs.

Also, this show is fucking beautiful. I can't get over how gorgeous every shot is. Even the dinner sequence with Syril's mom. The lighting, the set design, the choice of camera angles, it's a visual feast.

Mon at the end of episode 3 is heartbreaking. I would love to see O'Reilly considered during awards time. She's giving such an elegantly nuanced performance.
 
I'm keeping away from youtube and a lot of other sites, but what I'm gathering though is what's wrong with Andor is (spoilers for the first three episodes of season 2):

  1. It's too slow.
  2. Dancing
  3. Star Wars is too wholesome for rape or insinuation of rape.
The slow thing, I get why some would feel that way and can't fault you. It's a preference.

The dancing is just... I dunno. I can also get why some would take issue with it, but to me it was such an incredibly emotional scene. Maybe slow down and examine the subtext a little harder? Putting on a single day wedding is hard on anyone, but a three day affair? While walking a few different galactic rebellion-plotting tightropes? Good God. All that culminating in Mon Mothma dancing at the end... it's hard for me to see that as anything but incredible.

Lastly, too wholesome for rape... I get that argument too. Totally get that. It was upsetting and disturbing, but I feel that was the point. Really glad Cassian didn't swoop in to rescue her either. She handled it herself. And I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this topic, but in a series with 'war' in the title, unfortunately that is one aspect of war that's too common. Apparently there was some sexual assault in Clone Wars, Xizor is just inherently a sexual assaulter, isn't he? Then there's Jabba. We also have slavery in the galaxy, among many other things I wouldn't call wholesome. And while I tend to lean toward not including rape as a writing crutch for resulting in a female character finding their strength, I recognize it's a real thing that happens far more than I like thinking about.
 
I'm keeping away from youtube and a lot of other sites, but what I'm gathering though is what's wrong with Andor is (spoilers for the first three episodes of season 2):

  1. It's too slow.
  2. Dancing
  3. Star Wars is too wholesome for rape or insinuation of rape.
The slow thing, I get why some would feel that way and can't fault you. It's a preference.

The dancing is just... I dunno. I can also get why some would take issue with it, but to me it was such an incredibly emotional scene. Maybe slow down and examine the subtext a little harder? Putting on a single day wedding is hard on anyone, but a three day affair? While walking a few different galactic rebellion-plotting tightropes? Good God. All that culminating in Mon Mothma dancing at the end... it's hard for me to see that as anything but incredible.

Lastly, too wholesome for rape... I get that argument too. Totally get that. It was upsetting and disturbing, but I feel that was the point. Really glad Cassian didn't swoop in to rescue her either. She handled it herself. And I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this topic, but in a series with 'war' in the title, unfortunately that is one aspect of war that's too common. Apparently there was some sexual assault in Clone Wars, Xizor is just inherently a sexual assaulter, isn't he? Then there's Jabba. We also have slavery in the galaxy, among many other things I wouldn't call wholesome. And while I tend to lean toward not including rape as a writing crutch for resulting in a female character finding their strength, I recognize it's a real thing that happens far more than I like thinking about.

Allow me to present my soapbox and stand upon it.

I can see the "too slow" argument, but I think those people just have to learn to see the intrigue in storytelling. There's more than one way to execute "action"- a game of chess can be every bit as thrilling and meaningful as an all-out war if in the right hands, and I think Tony Gilroy (and company) certainly are those hands. Too many SW "fans" think that if it doesn't go pew-pew, it's poo-poo, and that simply isn't true. As influential as wars are in real life, more often than not, it's the closed-door meetings that get things done.

I felt the dance scene was such a bittersweet moment, and totally in character for her. It was a Darth Maul style double-edged sword- on one hand, she has to keep up appearances. If she doesn't appear happy with and celebrate her own daughter's marriage, it could tip people off that there's something deeper, or at the very least damage her relationship with some other influential people that she may need. On the other hand, she knows she's just lost her daughter and possibly her friend (even if her daughter isn't outright dead, their relationship more or less is). She knows things are heating up and becoming more serious than ever, and as bittersweet as everything is, this may be the last chance she ever gets for a moment of catharsis, so she has to take it. For my money, it's a brilliant bit of writing and symbolism; Mon has been worked into a corner, and she kinda loses no matter what path she takes, but she has to do it, she has to be the one to make the sacrifice. Crazy how Mon Mothma went from a pretty nothing character to one of my favorite and most well-rounded.

Said topic is obviously a very loaded one, and there's as many opinions as there are shades of gray in said topic. Oddly enough (but not surprising), most of the people I've seen who have an issue with it are male, and the ones who are glad they tackled the subject are female. It's not 100%, of course, but certainly the majority. Without getting into things too much, it's a subject that hits very close to home for me, so I was a little taken aback when it first happened, but it very quickly turned into a feeling of admiration that they decided to tackle said subject (and Disney let them). Like you said, Ru, as unfortunate and gross as it is, these things happen in real life. Every moment of every day, in fact, and history itself is steeped in it no matter where you look. I doubt you'd find a single war in history that didn't have some instance of it, including by the people that you'd swear were the good guys. But I also don't think it's anything new to Star Wars, it's just the first time (perhaps) that it's been alluded to so heavily. But look at what Jabba did to Leia in ROTJ. Look at any of the Twi'lek dancers in anything they appear in- it's something that can certainly be inferred as having happened. It's a dirty tactic used to instantly dehumanize and take control, and I fully believe that the Empire- which is overwhelmingly male dominated- wouldn't stoop to such levels. We know they have no issue murdering innocents- including women and children- so why would they have an issue doing something else? Especially when they know that they can get away with it- what could truly be done about something like that, when any retaliation would get you instantly imprisoned or killed? The sleeping guard was the dead giveaway- he didn't move a muscle when Bix was screaming, but the moment his fellow officer began to shout, he sprang into action, which just tells me how commonplace said things are in the Empire. I think that an aspect of it that a lot of people seem to not be focusing on is Bix taking control. Unfortunately in real life, a lot of the victims of such an act are previous victims. But this time, Bix didn't let herself be a victim (not that anyone lets themself be, but you know what I mean). She met a violent tactic with a violent tactic and overcame her oppressor (I loved the symbolism of both baddies- the doctor in the dream and the officer- looking in the mirror before they went after her, and said mirror breaking in the fight). It was a bold move for them to do, and of course it didn't (and never would) work for everyone, but I'm glad they did it. It's obviously something that should only be employed in very specific circumstances, so I don't expect it to necessarily ever be explored again in such detail, but I'm glad they did.

Point is- I don't think most of your average Star Wars fans know what they want, nor do I think they want it once they're given it. Like a monkey with a Rubik's cube, all you can do is set it in front of it and hope for the best- it'll get it eventually.
 
The Imperial Officer in question - I had to look the actor up because he reminded me SO MUCH of Ian McDiarmid. The facial expressions, the voice, the violence in his eyes - they are not related but I was half expecting him to be Ian's son.
 
I think those people just have to learn to see the intrigue in storytelling
Definitely. I get if you watch Star Wars for the fantasy and hero's journey etc, but the way they're telling this story is just too good to dismiss because it's not like the other one.
Too many SW "fans" think that if it doesn't go pew-pew, it's poo-poo
Brilliant.
on one hand, she has to keep up appearances
Exactly. If you're watching these scenes without dwelling on them, or occasionally glancing up from your phone, yeah I get why you think it sucks.
she knows she's just lost her daughter and possibly her friend
Right. On its face, its a drawn out wedding full of customs and costumes, but the subtext is fraught with emotion.
this may be the last chance she ever gets for a moment of catharsis, so she has to take it
Yeah, and for those of us empathizing with Mon this entire time, it was cathartic as well!
Mon has been worked into a corner, and she kinda loses no matter what path she takes, but she has to do it, she has to be the one to make the sacrifice. Crazy how Mon Mothma went from a pretty nothing character to one of my favorite and most well-rounded.
Outstanding point about her being in a corner and losing no matter what. And that's really what I feel her aspect of the rebellion is about. Her marriage is more or less done and her relationship with her daughter was fractured, but now she's essentially traded that child to ensure a stronger rebellion. She's giving everything she possibly can for the cause and understandably devastated about it, but she CANNOT SHOW IT! To anyone. Not her husband, not her guests, and not even Luthen. She has allies and partners, but she is still very much on her own in significant ways.

You're absolutely right about her becoming so well rounded. I just said it the other day but I say again, Mon Mothma should have a spin off. you could do a few off-camera moments, like revealing she was backstage at Yavin during the battle, but mostly dive into her political intrigue, like when the Emperor dissolves the senate. Is that ultimately freeing for her, while also making her job as a revolutionary even harder?
most of the people I've seen who have an issue with it are male, and the ones who are glad they tackled the subject are female
I was wondering about that. Also noted the two big issues found with these episodes are centered on female characters.
I was a little taken aback when it first happened, but it very quickly turned into a feeling of admiration that they decided to tackle said subject
Exactly the same for me. I was very uncomfortable, but kept watching and considered why I felt that way. It was a bold move, and they could have easily shown the initial part of what the officer was doing to give the idea, then cut to the guy outside's perspective for the rest. And that probably would have put a lot of these viewers at ease, but they didn't do that.
It's a dirty tactic used to instantly dehumanize and take control, and I fully believe that the Empire- which is overwhelmingly male dominated- wouldn't stoop to such levels
Absolutely.
he didn't move a muscle when Bix was screaming, but the moment his fellow officer began to shout, he sprang into action, which just tells me how commonplace said things are in the Empire.
Excellent point.
But this time, Bix didn't let herself be a victim (not that anyone lets themself be, but you know what I mean
I do.
It's obviously something that should only be employed in very specific circumstances, so I don't expect it to necessarily ever be explored again in such detail, but I'm glad they did
Again, I agree entirely.
 
It's funny, I want to talk about my reaction to Andor so far, but whenever I start to talk about it I realize I just kind of want to exist in how the show is making me think and feel. It's worked itself in on a cellular level on the way it is all the things I want it to be, and it hitting on all the things in the real world my brain and heart won't let me rest from.

I said the first season made me want to go join a much needed rebellion, and nothing about this season has changed that.

I was on an author panel yesterday and we were talking about hopepunk and empathy. The other panelists kept winding it back to peace and civility, and I kept saying: yeah, but you also need the ones who are willing to do the ugly part. Hope can be angry, and hope sometimes should be angry, and Andor as a show is an angry kind of hope.
 
Whoever wrote that scene has definitely ping-ponged around in a videogame space ship. I yelled "EFFING INVERTED X-AXIS" at the screen.
 
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