DC Studios Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

fac said:
liked the implications of (I think) Frank Miller's take on the character, that if Batman had superstrength and could fly and was near invincible, he might lean towards more of a "I'm in charge now" mindset. Even more so than your thoughts about Tony in the MCU.
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Mm, totally disagree.
Obviously Batman’s been around long enough that almost any type of characterization could be “legit” at this point, but boy oh boy do I push back at the idea of Batman being corrupted by power into becoming a fascist/authoritarian. Indeed, quite the opposite: the more “power” Batman has, the LESS violence and control he would want to engage in, in my view. Batman’s moral/ethical code is much more rigid than Superman’s, and his will is much stronger. And despite the frightening theatrics, Batman is inherently kind. He’s even tried to rehabilitate the Joker. He might, if given great power, make some mistakes, but unlike MCU Stark, his intentions would be altruistic, humanistic, and in the interest of preventing harm, as opposed to self-serving narcissism wrapped in excuses. I would contend that Batman would be an ethical custodian of great power.
 
TheSameIdiot said:
I hope Gunn's careful about rehabilitating Luthor. He was pitch-perfect as an egomaniacal billionaire; I don't need him getting a redemption arc.
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Oh their gods YES.

Redeeming Luthor would be utterly disingenuous and, frankly, send a shitty message. Fuckers like Lex do NOT “break good”, and they shouldn’t do it even in fiction. I’m beyond tired of the myth of the “good billionaire”. Sorry, Batman, I know it’s just your cover.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Mm, totally disagree.
Obviously Batman’s been around long enough that almost any type of characterization could be “legit” at this point, but boy oh boy do I push back at the idea of Batman being corrupted by power into becoming a fascist/authoritarian. Indeed, quite the opposite: the more “power” Batman has, the LESS violence and control he would want to engage in, in my view. Batman’s moral/ethical code is much more rigid than Superman’s, and his will is much stronger. And despite the frightening theatrics, Batman is inherently kind. He’s even tried to rehabilitate the Joker. He might, if given great power, make some mistakes, but unlike MCU Stark, his intentions would be altruistic, humanistic, and in the interest of preventing harm, as opposed to self-serving narcissism wrapped in excuses. I would contend that Batman would be an ethical custodian of great power.
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Matt Fraction's Batman (#1 released yesterday) seems to be headed in that direction. Sean Gordon Murphy's Batman: White Knight and its sequel also had an interesting take on Bruce Wayne the philanthropist.

Outside of Batman: Year One (not without its problems) and his Daredevil run, I ignore Miller. Dude's a fascist. If I had any ability to read subtext as a 13-year-old, I would've caught it after seeing 300. Same goes for Zack Snyder.
 
Back in the late 90's, I remember talking to Grant Morrison about Batman being in the JLA. I was curious as to how Bruce, who was a loner by nature, liked being in the group and how he viewed his teammates. Grant said he looked at them as "Six Robin's".

Bruce is a good man and he does want to do the right thing, but he's also the ultimate control freak.
 
TheSameIdiot said:
Outside of Batman: Year One (not without its problems) and his Daredevil run, I ignore Miller.
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I actually... wasn't even into his Daredevil stuff, even as a massive DD fan. I don't know why. I also didn't like Dark Knight Returns, but Year One is one of my favorite Batman stories ever. I think it's the only Miller thing I've read that I liked.
 
Batman was pretty clearly fascist in Kingdom Come with his Bat-Bots striking fear. That said, one story isn't defining. He seems to fit well when he has something to rail against. The Elseworlds Annual where earth had been subjugated by aliens and the only one left fighting back was Batman struck a chord with me. Batman is a wartime general, not a peace time President.
 
Chooch555 said:
Batman was pretty clearly fascist in Kingdom Come with his Bat-Bots striking fear.
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Yeah, they do love to do those “something bad happened to Batman and made him into an asshole when he got old” stories. Kinda like how they like to do those “someone (usually Joker) killed someone (usually Lois) close to Superman, and he flipped out and became a dick/murderous dictator/concentration camp advocate” stories.
I think I’m tired of the “truly good guy goes bad” deconstructions at this point. I loved The Dark Knight Returns so much as an eight year old . . . but man, I’m 47 now and for Grodd’s sake it’s 2025, not 1986.
 
Maybe appropriate to have Superman age into someone who becomes more idealistic, more rose-eyed when viewing America, dismissive of negative critiques of the nation (and himself, like we saw in the movie), while Clark Kent and Lois Lane boomer out into a life of comfort. "I worked hard saving the planet, I earned this!" Sees younger generations as lacking the motivation and stick-to-itness of his piers. Only fights the big romantic battles, can't see nuance. Ineffective at battling the source of the world's corruption.

Meanwhile Batman is the other shade. A paranoid conspiracy theorist living in the sticks. Bruce lost his fortune to a liberal elite that ripped him off, while his mind was elsewhere being Batman. He's Batman 24/7 now... online. Understands the true criminals are in the system, the people in the shadows pulling the strings. Believes the world would be a better place if everyone found their own inner Batman. Working on a plan to take down Palantir. Local Geeksquad employee is his new IT Robin.

Both still have good hearts, but can't see beyond their own personal pain and coping mechanisms.

Both enjoy a good Minion meme.

Bruce has followed and unfollowed Dick Grayson several times on Facebook. Doesn't understand why the Batfam doesn't want to come to his house for Thanksgiving. House is a mess without Alfred. Wishes Gordon was still around--they don't make men like him anymore.

I call it... The Lost Knight Returns.
 
Batman is the guy portrayed as having a plan to take out everyone, including Superman, if needed. He relies on fear and physicality to bring justice/stop crime. I agree he is a complex character, but I think it is reasonable to wonder how he would act if he felt his only constraints were his own moral code. He is essentially a vigilante. I like that he has his no-kill code, and wants to rehabilitate the bad guys, and wants Gotham to be a better place. It is what keeps him a hero. But he is also a means to an ends person, and a control freak, and trying to fix things - that can go awry if given free reign...

I think the contrast between the big blue boy scout and the dark knight is what makes them work so well.
 
fac said:
I think the contrast between the big blue boy scout and the dark knight is what makes them work so well.
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Ah, and I see the contrast as largely cosmetic, with both being almost naive altruists, albeit from very different places and by necessity using very different outward methodology.
I definitely prefer the “Superman and Batman are best friends, actually, just Batman is a traumatized introvert and Superman is a golden retriever in human form”.

But what I love most about these characters is that they are open to so many divergent interpretations. That’s what makes them truly legendary.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Ah, and I see the contrast as largely cosmetic, with both being almost naive altruists, albeit from very different places and by necessity using very different outward methodology.
I definitely prefer the “Superman and Batman are best friends, actually, just Batman is a traumatized introvert and Superman is a golden retriever in human form”.

But what I love most about these characters is that they are open to so many divergent interpretations. That’s what makes them truly legendary.
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I should clarify that Batman from my youth was the Adam West version - when I first read comics in the early- to mid-70's it was quit jarring that they referred to him as The Batman, the darkness, etc. I think the first one I picked up (at the barbershop) was the Ras Al Ghul story where The Batman gets stabbed through the chest with a sword and is wandering around with his chest exposed and the really pointy cowl - classic Neal Adams art but a bit much for me at 5 or 6 used to the mild mannered TV version.

In any case, I like the less damaged, more clever, colorful and campy Batman... but also like the more modern interpretation that embraces the darkness. I honestly think the Batman from the Timmverse is the all time best version as it combines both in many ways.
 
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