Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

The other thing is Marvel Studios kinda has this one thing they do, heh. 20th Century Fox had all sorts of things beyond Star Wars, and even LFL has some things, and WB definitely does.
 
Learning about how important the F4 are to the history of comics (something I knew, but I loved reading SDC's breakdown because it's beautifully written) is kind of like learning the history of jazz. Like... I get that it's important and I still think it sucks.

Something I'm looking forward to, potentially, with the F4 movie is caring about the F4. I know that sounds weird, but hear me out: I have never liked Captain America. The Captain America -movies- are some of my favorite superhero movies (well, the first and second ones, at least). I never cared at all about Black Panther and I love the first BP movie. I'm not a big Daredevil fan and I'm a HUGE Daredevil TV Show fan. I just think the films have, mostly, managed to make me invest in characters I usually turn my nose up at. I want to see how they do that with F4, if they can.
 
Yeah I’ll give the MCU that those first two Cap movies really kickstarted me “liking” Cap in general. I mostly liked his *villains* (like not “like” as in “ooh I wanna be like them” but rather that I found them compelling), but those first two films invited me to like *him*.
 
MCU Cap RETURNED me to liking Cap. I had started rejecting him after 9/11, honestly, because our turn toward jingoism soured me on anything red white and blue, and Ultimates really put me off the Avengers entirely for a while because it was such a mean comic. But in the comics Cap had never been a patriot in the modern America vibe but a patriot in the classic, I want this place to deserve what I will give for it kind of guy. He stormed off and called himself Nomad and had hit t*ts out in a silly costume when the country let him down. That speech he gave to Spider-Man JMS wrote for him. "No, you move." Evans' Cap embodied what he SHOULD be, not what he was on the tin. He was a great Cap.

Man, comics are a weird space. Depending on who's telling the story, a character can be so different. But get it right and it is RIGHT. "Plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth" is my Cap. My Tony Stark isn't in the films, it's in Fear Itself when he sacrifices his sobriety to Odin to save the world. "I'm a scientist, I don't even believe in you. Here's a sacrifice, you cycloptic bully." Grant Morrison and Jae Lee telling that moody, elegant story of a fractured family in Fantastic Four: 1234, or even more, Reed asking Black Bolt to yell his son's name into the cosmos to save the world at the end of Earth X, knowing what it'll cost. Doctor Strange realizing he almost broke the universe because he was acting like a "sad old lonely fool." Clint saying "Katie, look at all these things I've done" as he thinks about a lifetime of fuckups. That bit from Immortal Hulk - "I loved you, you stupid kid. Somebody had to."

Anyway. That's the funny thing about the MCU. I don't think it could ever match my favorite comic book story, but if it can get its fingertips onto the rim of the ledge, that's close enough. I'm hoping F4 can do that.
 
The comics I read regularly as a kid were X-Men, FF, and Daredevil (plus Star Wars, Micronauts and other sci-fi). The only "Avengers" title I read regularly was Simonson Thor, and didn't read Hulk or Spidey unless then guest starred in a book. So it is possible one of the reasons I have liked the MCU is because for the most part it hasn't been the characters I was most connected to so had less expectations. (Note - I never expect the films to mimic the comics, I view it like a change of creative team on a comic as being a whole new story, more or less). But in theory, the post Secret Wars MCU with the FF and X-Men at the forefront, if that is what happens, is finally getting to my sweet spot...we'll see.
 
Damien said:
The Captain America -movies- are some of my favorite superhero movies (well, the first and second ones, at least).
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My hottest MCU take is that Captain America: The First Avenger is a top 5 MCU movie. Winter Soldier is obviously up there, too.
AceofKnaves said:
Yeah I’ll give the MCU that those first two Cap movies really kickstarted me “liking” Cap in general. I mostly liked his *villains* (like not “like” as in “ooh I wanna be like them”
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Shame. I almost pointed you toward an up-and-coming political movement.
docsilence said:
MCU Cap RETURNED me to liking Cap. I had started rejecting him after 9/11, honestly, because our turn toward jingoism soured me on anything red white and blue, and Ultimates really put me off the Avengers entirely for a while because it was such a mean comic. But in the comics Cap had never been a patriot in the modern America vibe but a patriot in the classic, I want this place to deserve what I will give for it kind of guy.
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Another great docsilence take. This guy doesn't miss.
docsilence said:
Man, comics are a weird space. Depending on who's telling the story, a character can be so different. But get it right and it is RIGHT. "Plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth" is my Cap.
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I like superheroes best when they're aspirational. As an adult, I don't have many moments of moral indecision, but when I do, I ask myself, "What would Superman do?" It's WWJD for us nerdy, godless heathens.

As a complete aside, while I like Alan Moore's Miracleman, it's far more interesting to me when powerful, god-like heroes commit to doing the selfless thing. We see powerful people doing awful shit all the time. It isn't exactly new or unheard of.

Of course there's space for comic characters to fuck up, face moral dilemmas, and question whether they're doing the right thing, but a strong moral center is an indelible character trait for superheroes.
 
AceofKnaves said:
I absolutely agree. I might even say “top 3”.
Edit: nope, top 2.
1. Winter Soldier
2. Cap
3. Black Panther
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This was my top 5 on my last (only) rewatch:
  1. Avengers: Endgame
  2. Thor: Ragnarok
  3. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
  4. Spider-Man: Homecoming
  5. Captain America: The First Avenger
BP was 6.
 
TheSameIdiot said:
I like superheroes best when they're aspirational. As an adult, I don't have many moments of moral indecision, but when I do, I ask myself, "What would Superman do?" It's WWJD for us nerdy, godless heathens.
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This is why I'm an almost comically cynical, Raven of Doom human who actually makes part of my living writing aspirational superhero characters. Because I want superheroes to be who I want to be. (It's kind of funny, my father, myself, and one of my brothers have actually gotten screwed over with work for pulling "no, you move" stuff sticking up for people who worked for us. My mom hates it because she's surrounded by men who can't resist sticking their necks out for other people but I'm over here like YOU GAVE ME SUPERMAN AND CAPTAIN AMERICA WHEN I WAS FOUR YEARS OLD, who else was I gonna grow up to be???)

Y'know, there's now too many MCU projects for me to say what my top five are, but if I was at laser pistol-point and had to pick, I'd have to Cap movies in mine and after surviving the edgelord 90s and early aughts, after surviving Mark Millar writing Captain America as a jingoistic misogynist, having not one but TWO Cap movies where he shows the audience how to be a better person by just being a good man is pretty badass. There's a lot to complain about with the MCU but man, they figured Steve out.
 
I think the Cap trilogy is by far the best series of the "lead character" films in the MCU in that all three are above average while also being different in tone and consequential. All the other series have had some average (or worse) entries.
 
TheSameIdiot said:
This was my top 5 on my last (only) rewatch:
  1. Avengers: Endgame
  2. Thor: Ragnarok
  3. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
  4. Spider-Man: Homecoming
  5. Captain America: The First Avenger
BP was 6.
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How does the "Report" function work? Because having Thor: Ragnarök as the second best MCU seems like it is either an attack on basic human decency or clear trolling. Either way, I was offended and triggered.

More seriously, I am curious what makes that stand out for you as being #2? It felt like a missed opportunity at times for me, and that might be because the whole Surtur arc in the Simonson Thor run was so epic, and the later use of Skurge so impactful (one of the greatest comic pages of all time), that it didn't sit right with me.

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