Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

I get wanting a rootable protagonist to enjoy the show. I don't really agree (love Succession), but I guess I get it. I found Tony very unlikeable in Iron Man 1, but the movie was very engaging. He had a journey to make before becoming a hero. I feel like Riri's story is still developing and I see her in a much better light than I ever saw Tony when he was first introduced. Context and all that.
 
Hi-Fi said:
I get wanting a rootable protagonist to enjoy the show. I don't really agree (love Succession), but I guess I get it. I found Tony very unlikeable in Iron Man 1, but the movie was very engaging. He had a journey to make before becoming a hero. I feel like Riri's story is still developing and I see her in a much better light than I ever saw Tony when he was first introduced. Context and all that.
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I agree. I always hated Tony and thought he was a complete prick. With that said, I still enjoyed the character's arc in the MCU. I'm reminded of the interview Sarah Jessica Parker just did:

“It’s always interesting to me that [this is] so condemned, but a male lead on a show can be a murderer, and people love him. And if a woman has an affair, or behaves poorly, or spends money foolishly […] there’s a kind of punitive response to it...but I ultimately think that all those feelings are pretty fantastic. That kind of connection and those kinds of strong feelings, both positive and negative, are pretty wonderful. People are kind of captive in those moments to something, and I think that’s perfectly fine. I just think, it’s just interesting, the ways in which we judge women, and not men.”

OK, for real, now I'm back to being one with this meme.
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Hi-Fi said:
I get wanting a rootable protagonist to enjoy the show. I don't really agree (love Succession), but I guess I get it. I found Tony very unlikeable in Iron Man 1, but the movie was very engaging. He had a journey to make before becoming a hero. I feel like Riri's story is still developing and I see her in a much better light than I ever saw Tony when he was first introduced. Context and all that.
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Succession is a fantastic example. And yeah, Tony was a total jerk, pretty much always. Think of the way he treated harley in Iron Man 3, etc. But he also clearly wore his trauma and such on his sleeve at all times. When he quipped with Thor, it was obvious how intimidated he was by the guy but desperate to prove he wasn't. Meanwhile, Roman on Succession (man... wouldn't Culkin make for a good post-Secret Wars Tony Stark?) was probably the most fucked up yet most interesting character.
CTV said:
I agree. I always hated Tony and thought he was a complete prick. With that said, I still enjoyed the character's arc in the MCU. I'm reminded of the interview Sarah Jessica Parker just did:

“It’s always interesting to me that [this is] so condemned, but a male lead on a show can be a murderer, and people love him. And if a woman has an affair, or behaves poorly, or spends money foolishly […] there’s a kind of punitive response to it...but I ultimately think that all those feelings are pretty fantastic. That kind of connection and those kinds of strong feelings, both positive and negative, are pretty wonderful. People are kind of captive in those moments to something, and I think that’s perfectly fine. I just think, it’s just interesting, the ways in which we judge women, and not men.”
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Completely fair. And to take it even further, think about how much audiences HATE the shrewish wife of characters like Tony Soprano or Walter White. I didn't actually like Skylar White, but I also DETEST Walter White. And not in a 'oh boy, he's such a terd, I can't wait to see what he pulls off next' way. I hated the character throughout the entire run of Breaking Bad, thought he was horribly selfish, manipulative scum, and still have never grasped why anyone cheered for his actions (I know two personally, who finally convinced me to try the show, but I kept watching for several of the supporting characters, most of whom were on Better Call Saul, which I enjoy WAAAAAY more than Breaking Bad).

but ultimately, you have a character like Carmella Soprano who is passively complicit with Tony's misbehavior, but sometimes she is an obstacle in the way of him being a ruthless criminal. And a lot of the audience hate her for that because he's the main character. I find that fascinating.

I still haven't made the time to watch ironheart, but my son said he wants to try it with me so maybe this evening!
 
I've finished all three episodes and this show feels edited down to a nub. And then ADR'd back to full-length.

I'm real curious what these original scripts looked like. The parts are all there but they are in such a weird configuration. Like, not telling us how old she is - plus, from some angles and angry faces, Dominique looks 30, which makes the immaturity even more incongruent. And this *should* be a prequel - that would make total sense.

NatAI is probably my favorite character but that could be because Lyric Ross is so fun and residual This Is Us appreciation (but I realized this shot three years ago and I haven't seen her in anything since! :( )

The bad guys seem shaved down to colorful nothings and half their dialogue is obvious ADR. Parker kinda geographically pops around in scenes which means a lot of material has been removed. Manny Montana feels out of place as a henchmen. And the question remains - why did Riri need to get involved with this OBVIOUSLY CRIMINAL crew? She couldn't, I don't know, take ONE day to apply for a grant and sleep off that fall? Or, call the Queen of Wakanda for a student loan? Also, there is no way that tiny woman can just wear her armor like that without power.

Her mom and love interest have also been edited way down and the only character who feels like a full one at this point is Joe - and even that went from below zero to 100 at warp speed. I don't dislike Riri, she's just an unfocused character.

Real curious to see how this all wraps up, though.
 
Ru1977 said:
think about how much audiences HATE the shrewish wife of characters like Tony Soprano or Walter White
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Ohhh man.
Man oh man.
That attitude has always given me massive “ick”. And I’ll tell you: I already disliked Walt and honestly felt a lot of empathy for Skylar, but rewatching BB with my wife, with her watching for the *first* time, was incredibly illuminating.
She didn’t just *dislike* Walter, she SEETHED through every episode with righteous fury. She’d scream “FUCK THIS FUCKING NARCISSISTIC PIECE OF SHIT” multiple times an episode. I kinda waited a while before revealing to her that the same fandom that seems to idolize Walt also *despises* Skylar, and she was all “YEP, that fucking figures, men are fucking disgusting.” And I was like “aww all those fans aren’t—nope, not even gonna say it, you are TOTALLY right.”
Wild stuff to watch.
She wouldn’t even watch The Sopranos past the first episode. “Nope, not gonna be manipulated into rooting for this pig for a bunch of seasons.”
😬
 
I think that the difference is that it is clear we are supposed to at least question the character of Tony Soprano, Walter White, Vic Mackey, etc., if not outright root against them.

I guess it is less obvious that the audience may be expected to start out questioning the decision making with a "superhero" origin-ish story like this - it is just not an expected choice and I doubt from her arc that she will come out of the show "unlikeable". Its a fine line - Riri is clear that the motivation for building the suit is altruistic, and in response to her friend and father's deaths which I assume may have been preventable if emergency response had gotten there sooner, given what she said when she spoke with the college admin. So she is misguided but not a potential "anti-hero" like Soprano. And obsessed with making the suit work.

(I will note that, at least for me, I never really engaged with The Sopranos or Breaking Bad because I really don't like the leads being the bad guy that we are maybe supposed to root for. For The Shield, I thought it was clear Vic was the bad guy lead from the start so that made it interesting, and for Mad Men, Draper was such a train wreck at times that you were rooting for him to get it together, as he wasn't "bad" per se in the killing and drug trade level of bad. Its interesting to me that so many people hated the Seinfeld finale because they highlighted the fact all the characters were really terrible people - comedy around terrible people has been common from the UK - The Office, Blackadder, Absolutely Fabulous...)

I think that "is she the hero or not" hurt WandaVision some, in that I think our default was to want to like Wanda even though she was doing bad things to the point it wasn't narratively clear (I felt) whether the show believed she had been in the wrong, same thing with Agatha in her show - although less so.

Like I said though, Riri "not being OK" at the end of Episode 3 I suspect will be the turnaround for her. That was, I hope, her at her lowest.

Joining the Hood's gang might have been better if it seemed more like she had known some of the crew beforehand and didn't realize what she was getting into, or it was sold to her more as "robbing the rich to feed the poor".

I think Thorne is doing a good job, liked her better in this so far than BP2 - I still dream of the all-new, all-female Avengers team being potentially amazing as I think the female leads have a lot more charisma than the male leads for Marvel at this point. A film centered on Yelena, Kate, Kamala, Shuri, Riri and Jennifer could be amazing given the quality of that cast and the good characters they have built (add in America, Cassie, Monica - less interesting so far but OK.)
 
AceofKnaves said:
Ohhh man.
Man oh man.
That attitude has always given me massive “ick”. And I’ll tell you: I already disliked Walt and honestly felt a lot of empathy for Skylar, but rewatching BB with my wife, with her watching for the *first* time, was incredibly illuminating.
She didn’t just *dislike* Walter, she SEETHED through every episode with righteous fury. She’d scream “FUCK THIS FUCKING NARCISSISTIC PIECE OF SHIT” multiple times an episode.
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YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!! I clearly have an easier time watching these kind of people than she does. I've watched the entirety of Sopranos three times, and am rewatching The Shield right now. One of my favorite movies of all time is Goodfellas. But most of these characters, while I don't fully hope for them to make it happen, or overcome, or pull one over the character trying to catch them, I do sympathize to SOME degree. Walter White, never. Not once. Never thought he was cool or bad ass or redeemable. Just slipped further and further into what he truly was from the beginning. And yeah, I don't think Tony Soprano or Vic Mackey are redeemable either, in fact both shows proved that pretty well. I can't pinpoint what the difference is for me though.
 
There's definitely a difference between "likable" and "sympathetic". Just because you're a protagonist doesn't mean you're the good guy, per se. Many villains are likable because they're charismatic, charming, funny, quirky, etc. Doesn't mean they're sympathetic (though they can be). Just like heroes can be sympathetic, but not necessarily likable; often in order to be the hero, they have to be a bit boring or passive or ignorant, etc. They don't always act rationally so that they can then learn a lesson later on, whereas villains can often be more impulsive (at least without immediate consequence), or can make what many would see as the "right" decision, even if it's not the "good" one. If there's not something else to appeal to audiences like a quirk or sense of humor or something, I'd argue many main heroes can be unlikable, even if we're supposed to root for them. It's a very tricky line to toe, and oftentimes one could argue it comes down more to performance than how it's written (though it's obviously a mix of many things).

Haven't gotten around to checking Ironheart out yet; I'm not so much interested as just kinda morbidly curious at this point- I'll probably wait until it's all out and can binge it, just so I don't watch half, then lose interest or focus while I'm waiting. It feels pretty obvious that she's gonna be at least a somewhat significant player moving forward, at least amongst the Young Avengers, so it feels like I should devote some time to learning about her.
 
Ru1977 said:
I hated the character throughout the entire run of Breaking Bad, thought he was horribly selfish, manipulative scum, and still have never grasped why anyone cheered for his actions (I know two personally, who finally convinced me to try the show, but I kept watching for several of the supporting characters, most of whom were on Better Call Saul, which I enjoy WAAAAAY more than Breaking Bad).
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I watched the first few episodes or season of Breaking Bad when it first aired and dropped out. In part because I believe the first season was meant to be a dark comedy, but was so dark that it became more of a drama to most people and they laid into that later on. I am sure that Gilligan was trying for comedy but the underlying plot - cancer, drugs, death - was too dark and it was more interesting as a drama with some comedy. But I felt he was going for the Heathers level of screwball dark comedy at first, and I didn't think it was working.
 
My main issue with Breaking Bad is the fans that don't see how fucking silly it is. Suburban middle age dude who beats the Mexican drug cartels again and again b/c he's good at science is silly on the level of "this guy has Spider powers" silly.

I have no short circuit in my brain that prevents me from seeing simultaneously Tony Soprano's base level humanity and that also he is a piece of shit.
 
Uhhhhh if
are legit, I’m gonna have to get the fuck on watching this show!!!
 
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