Harvinger Studios, Savage Crucible

The one thing I'll say against their business model beyond just that I don't like it is that it really does have the potential to put people off the product in multiple ways. And that's not great. You've got people that just don't want to deal with artificial scarcity at all, and also those that don't like to pre-order things (and the overlap of the two) that might just say 'I'm out' for this entire line rather than deal with it.

Then you have to worry about the people that miss out on an important item for their collection and decide 'fuck this entire line.' Undoubtedly, there's already at least a couple of collectors out there that don't want to buy any Moorcock figures if they can't start with Elric. Certainly, that isn't going to stop the next two figures from also selling out. But that knock on effect could prove to be a bitch.



adrienveidt said:
Every opportunity they've had to say it after selling out within minutes of their first licensed character, or are *you* being obtuse thinking they haven't realized that their situation has changed?
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I think the point is that there's no reason to believe it matters. The immediate sell-out REINFORCES their reason for constantly saying they will not do re-issues. They've said, at every single opportunity, that the company stance is to not re-issue figures. If an immediate sell-out does anything positive for customers, it'll be convincing them to maybe produce more units for the next item. There's no reason to believe this changes the oft-repeated company stance on re-issues except that you just.. want it to be true.
 
adrienveidt said:
Every opportunity they've had to say it after selling out within minutes of their first licensed character, or are *you* being obtuse thinking they haven't realized that their situation has changed?
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It's not obtuse to take people at their word. You're suggesting we should assume, as opposed to having merely silly principles, that they actually have none at all.
 
Damien said:
I think the point is that there's no reason to believe it matters. The immediate sell-out REINFORCES their reason for constantly saying they will not do re-issues. They've said, at every single opportunity, that the company stance is to not re-issue figures. If an immediate sell-out does anything positive for customers, it'll be convincing them to maybe produce more units for the next item. There's no reason to believe this changes the oft-repeated company stance on re-issues except that you just.. want it to be true.
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No, the point is not to get stuck on 'reissue' but 'more'.

I've already said the guy told me straight to my face they'd have to change the product details up to do Elric again. It's long established industry practice that second production runs are rarely *identical* anyways for several reasons so talking about a second *identical* reissue is a nonsense topic from every direction it can be taken and ultimately a strawman argument I don't see anybody actually making.

Don't tell me they've said this much-bandied house philosophy again in the wake of this sell-out when we all know they haven't and the guy told me directly into my ears merely 7days ago they were seeking to do exactly what this conversation is actually about; more Elric, verbatim: 'if we can'.
 
JakeEkiss said:
It's not obtuse to take people at their word. You're suggesting we should assume, as opposed to having merely silly principles, that they actually have none at all.
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It is kind of obtuse to take people at their word while assuming that word means something different from what they mean. Just because they say no reissues doesn't prevent variants. Maybe once the third party that gets a say in the proceedings will change things up.

I mean, Christallfuck; you guys. All they gotta do to get around this house philosophy is simply leave 'Harvinger Studios' off the branding. Yeesh.
 
Even though I feel for people who have to go with after market now I kind of hope they hold their ground and don't bring him back. I think people will have to make their peace with them being a buy from pre-order, or pay busted aftermarket prices brand and call it a day. Which kind of isn't the end of the world I guess since they objectively aren't that expensive.

As someone who primarily collects Japanese IP figures I'm no stranger to having to pay ballooned prices so I've kind of just made my peace with it. The only reason I was much less interested here besides knowing he'd rerun to sell their overstock - was I'm not personally sold enough on the brand yet to drop 4x retail to get him.

I already have both Death Dealer and his horse pre-ordered though. I had a bad feeling they'd get sold out and super expensive and if Elric is an indicator, I was right.
 
The no reissue strategy I think works for their in-house IP. You want a particular lizard dude, buy it now cause when it's gone it's gone. Holding to that pushes people to buy the piranha dudes or the wolf guy when it comes out. If your assumption is customers who liked the prior figures will want the new stuff, it makes sense to utilize preorders to gauge interest and produce to that and train your customers that is how it works. Because if a particular style is a real hit, you can always make more, but different variants and looks. In this case you still get the customers money, just directed to different products.

I don't think it works for licensed IP because many, if not the majority, of your potential customers might buy Elric only and never come back. So you aren't training them for the future because if they are Moorcock fans, this one thing is what interests them at the moment and not anything else you are making or plan to make, unless you do a whole Moorcock line. So many Elrics that those folks want is a sale lost with no balancing that with future sales earned.

If I were them I might even make that distinction clear - our IP we will do single runs, licensed product we may produce again if he market demands it.
 
adrienveidt said:
It is kind of obtuse to take people at their word while assuming that word means something different from what they mean. Just because they say no reissues doesn't prevent variants. Maybe once the third party that gets a say in the proceedings will change things up.

I mean, Christallfuck; you guys. All they gotta do to get around this house philosophy is simply leave 'Harvinger Studios' off the branding. Yeesh.
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Wouldn't leaving the Harvinger logo off mean or imply a different company made it and break the contract with Moorcock (More Cock)? Or that they are trying to pass themselves off as a different company? The contract is signed with Harvinger Studios for the Savage Crucible line not a different one. That seems crazy shady to do to a business partner just so they can make more money at their expense. It seems like it would also be bad faith and cost them other licenses when the holders when they find out they are willing to boot leg they're own figures to skirt contract details.

No, they'd have to get rid of the owner not the branding. That's the guy who decided how production runs would work and he decided "No." Also even if Moorcock (More Cock) did want to do more, he can't force them to spend the money if they don't want to. And they don't, they said in one of the last 2 live streams they aren't excited for what we're getting released they're more excited to work on what's coming.

Also a variant would go against there 3 figure deal. A variant would have to have a different sku to get around the re-issue aspect and that would make it the second figure in their contract, breaking the terms of the contract they signed with Moorcock (More Cock) for three separate characters. They cannot make other version of the same character because that's not what the contract language said. That was told to me at Zolocon when I asked about other looks for Elric.

They also told me they're not doing re-isssues when I talked to them at Zolocon.

One of they're brand partners told me they're not doing reissues, when I asked Frankie Frazetta about it when he said the pre-orders for Death Dealer outsold Elric by a bit. Retailers asked for more, and they weren't able to give them everything they wanted so it's gonna be hugely popular. Despite that they (Harvinger and Frankie) agreed together no more after the initial production run anyway. So there is proof they aren't worried about the money or the popularity demanding more.

They can't even use the same parts and color schemes to make a "Not" Elric to release, because the armor for Elric and Death Dealer is exclusive tot those figures. Frankie told me that they would have to negotiate to use the shin guards for Death Dealer on another figure if they were to want do something that. He also talked in broad ways about the Moorcock (More Cock) deal because they were both involved in the Silver Warrior discussions, and he hinted they were structured the same. He also said Moorcock (More Cock) wanted a lot of money to use the Erekose name for Silver Warrior, so I think ole Mikey is gonna want some financial gain for a re-release, reissue, or variant. And since that's not written into the contract they would probably have to renegotiate for that if they were to do it.

All this comes form me talking with them personally for a few hours and watching the last 12 live streams. Does that make me an expert, no. But I feel like my level of expertise on this matter is the same as yours, and that's to say we both don't know very much.

I get it you had a conversation with them recently. But I had a more in depth conversation with Frankie Frazetta bout how all this works for hours 3 months ago. So we'll see. Maybe you're right.
 
And those who still want Death Dealer and cannot fond him to pre-order, the Frazetta Art Museum (NOT Frazetta Girls) still has him and Kubla Khan up for pre-order. They only are getting a few cases so supplies are limited. Do your best not miss out. It will be another Elric situation when Death Dealer comes out.
 
Thinking on the upcoming drop, I'm hoping for something either a little more horror or a little more eldritch. I'd like to see this barbarian body in some weirder colorways (given the tease, blood red seems like a good option). I'm going to guess the new figure will be using some of the bits from the accessory packs that haven't turned up in a regular figure release. Maybe the alt Nashorn head from the Conquest pack that wasn't used on Naraka. Maybe that spikey mace as well.

Though it'd be nice, I don't expect this to be all new body, weapons, or armor, except perhaps a new head. If it has more than that I'll be pleasantly surprised.
 
You're thinking small man; barbarian body/lizard limbs. An awesome paint job to cover up the poor transition with some new shoulder pads. Tell me you wouldn't love that in red and black.

Or.

Since it's a red hand they're showing, are they teasing an homage to Red Claw from Batman the Animated Series?

No.

That would be insane.
 
I think the elephant in the room that isn't getting much discussion is Harvinger owner Rob Post. I purchased a bunch of resin parts from MAFC over the years and Rob always made it super clear that he couldn't give a shit about customer wants or convenience. He ran that business at his convenience and he was very up front about it all over his website and newsletters. I think the Soup Nazi is an apt comparison. He would produce a limited run of something and once it sold out, it was gone, maybe forever, and he had no tolerance for questions about parts being reprinted, questions about when orders might ship, or questions about commissions. I wouldn't say he was an asshole, but the only customer service he wanted to engage in was sending you a replacement if something arrived broken or wrong.

It sounds like he makes pretty good money as a consultant for a major accounting firm. I'm sure he doesn't want Harvinger to go into the red, but he doesn't need, nor likely wants, Harvinger to blow up in size, either. As has already been pointed out, this business is still just a hobby for him and the cap on production numbers is probably more about keeping the company small and manageable than the financial appreciation of the toys they produce. Whatever money he's "leaving on the table" clearly isn't worth the hassle for him.
 
adrienveidt said:
so talking about a second *identical* reissue is a nonsense topic from every direction it can be taken and ultimately a strawman argument I don't see anybody actually making.
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GM actually specifically said they'd do a re-issue and have done re-issues in the past - which was being refuted in the thread when you started on this. So... it's not a strawman because that's what was being talked about?



adrienveidt said:
Don't tell me they've said this much-bandied house philosophy again in the wake of this sell-out when we all know they haven't and the guy told me directly into my ears merely 7days ago they were seeking to do exactly what this conversation is actually about; more Elric, verbatim: 'if we can'.
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Which has what to do with re-issues? No one said 'they will never make any other Elric figures ever.' We said two things; they originally said they are only doing one Elric and have not made any public announcement to the contrary and, secondly, that they almost certainly will not re-issue Elric because that is something they have repeatedly said the company will not do with any figures.

It's intellectually dishonest to say 'they'll make more Elric' - during a conversation about re-issues - and then say 'well, I didn't mean a re-issue.' Okay, great. Maybe? But they haven't announced one. They previously said they would not be doing that. And even if they do end up making more Elric figures, it won't be a re-issue of THIS Elric figure that people are upset about not getting, so it's irrelevant to what everyone else was actually talking about.

Do I think Harvinger will just put this Elric in different packaging and sell it again? No, I don't think so. And I don't think so because of their stated position on re-issues. If they have an ethical position on re-issues, which they seem to, then skirting the edges of their own policy is weird and unnecessary. At that point, they could just release it as-is and say 'we changed our minds.' Because changing the packaging and nothing else really just violates the -spirit- of not doing re-issues, and also absolutely violates their actual motive in driving FOMO.
So if they do Elric again, I imagine he will be functionally different. Maybe the bare-armed version (I think BROM?). But it won't be a re-issue of THIS figure, which is what the discussion was about.

Could I be wrong? Sure. But there is currently no indication that I am.


adrienveidt said:
I mean, Christallfuck; you guys. All they gotta do to get around this house philosophy is simply leave 'Harvinger Studios' off the branding. Yeesh.
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A ridiculous suggestion. And you know it.



Cold Blue said:
Even though I feel for people who have to go with after market now I kind of hope they hold their ground and don't bring him back. I think people will have to make their peace with them being a buy from pre-order, or pay busted aftermarket prices brand and call it a day. Which kind of isn't the end of the world I guess since they objectively aren't that expensive.
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Nah. I'd love it if they went back and said 'okay, we're gonna re-issue this figure exactly the same because we want this amazing character, in this amazing armor, out there for people to buy and we undershot demand.' IF that's feasible for them to do financially, I'd like that. I don't need another Elric. I won't buy another Elric if they do re-issue the figure. I've got mine. I love him. I'm content. But I love the community and I want EVERYONE to own him if they want to, because he's a fantastic figure and keeping him out of even a single collector's hands is a damn shame.

Rarity is bullshit and I hate it even when it does not impact me.



fac said:
I don't think it works for licensed IP because many, if not the majority, of your potential customers might buy Elric only and never come back. So you aren't training them for the future because if they are Moorcock fans, this one thing is what interests them at the moment and not anything else you are making or plan to make, unless you do a whole Moorcock line. So many Elrics that those folks want is a sale lost with no balancing that with future sales earned.
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I feel like I have been and will be pushing back on this idea my entire life; I do not believe there is a statistically relevant percentage of people that live this way. And I have yet to see a single piece of evidence for the existence of these mythical toy collectors that appear out of the aether to buy one specific branded item, and then disappear again because they're not actually toy collectors. I don't think there's a statistically relevant percentage of human beings on earth that will ever find out about an Elric figure where that is the one toy they would go buy.
I don't even think there's a statistically relevant percentage of toy collectors that would go buy an Elric figure but never be interested in anything else Harvinger does (particularly keeping in mind that he has two more Eternal Warriors coming, as well as other sword-and-sorcery literature characters). It seems like too much of a 'what if...' argument than something really worth putting effort into considering.

So 'training your consumers' is still absolutely a relevant factor, much as I fucking despise the very idea of that and it felt gross to type.



Dek said:
And those who still want Death Dealer and cannot fond him to pre-order, the Frazetta Art Museum (NOT Frazetta Girls) still has him and Kubla Khan up for pre-order. They only are getting a few cases so supplies are limited. Do your best not miss out. It will be another Elric situation when Death Dealer comes out.
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I have resisted DD up to this point and I really need you guys to all go buy one so it will sell out and I can finally be at peace. As long as it's available, the pull to just grab it is very strong. But I do not NEED a Death Dealer, and I've never LIKED Death Dealer all that much. And at these prices, I feel like I need ot REALLY be into something to buy it these days. But it's a really good-looking figure in a tremendously good line, so it's still hard to say no.
So, you guys... please go to the Frazetta Art Museum and buy the goddamn figure already. Jesus.
 
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