TMNT Origins (Rumour!)

[Detrimental Fig]

Is anyone really that interested in Mutant Mayhem 2? The first movie was *fine* but after I saw it, I had lost all interest in the toys...that I'd bought before seeing the movie. It felt like the toys started to pegwarm soon after, so I wondered if interest dropped fast. Or, at least, the movie didn't capture any kids like it was meant to. Just collectors who went "Oh it's the character I know."

 

[cmoney]

Is anyone really that interested in Mutant Mayhem 2? The first movie was *fine* but after I saw it, I had lost all interest in the toys...that I'd bought before seeing the movie. It felt like the toys started to pegwarm soon after, so I wondered if interest dropped fast. Or, at least, the movie didn't capture any kids like it was meant to. Just collectors who went "Oh it's the character I know."

The toys? No. The movie? Sure. I liked the first one quite a bit, as well as the two seasons of the followup show.

But also, I imagine Mattel is banking on the hoped-for success of the already-announced new version of TMNT movies they're going to start producing after MM2 to get the ball rolling again rather than expecting it from the sequel.

 

[Damien]

The toys? No. The movie? Sure. I liked the first one quite a bit, as well as the two seasons of the followup show.

Ditto.

Don't care about any toys they do for it, but I really enjoy that version of TMNT to sit and watch with my son.

 

[ChrisLyne]

It's the most specific one. But Mattel has at least three TMNT lines in some stage of development, as far as I am aware. I imagine one of them will be more in line with the more articulated, collector-oriented stuff we're used to from other brands.

Best guess is Mattel is going to (or at least consider) treating TMNT like MOTU.

So the three lines are probably something like this:

Core - kid focused (mostly) current media line, so predominantly Mutant Mayhem 2 in 2027 then new live action film in 2028. Not for me but likely the main line for kids and stores.

Collector - TMNT equivalent of Chronicles. This is the one I'm most curious about. I'm hoping it will be something akin to Masterverse's New Eternia and the non-movie Chronicles figures. Draw inspiration from everything and create a modern version. I fully expect there to be collector figures from the live action movie in there come 2028 but overall I hope we don't get a dozen sublines like OT, 2003, 2012, Mirage, classic movies, vintage etc. as almost all of them have been done by NECA and Super 7. A unified line is really the only thing that hasn't been done. Let's see Mattel's vision from the bulk of this line, hopefully something classic but fresh. That, with Chronicles quality, is what would make me buy in.

Updated Vintage - the "Origins" line. Given the current cost of Origins and the lack of reusable parts TMNT would have, I'm guessing cost may hurt this one. For the price it would probably require I'd probably put my money into the collector line instead. That said, figures in the vintage style with more modern articulation. If they go this route then I'd be much more interested in seeing them bring in new characters who never made it into the vintage line than in doing all the crazy variants of the turtles. Super7 started going there with Karai before the line died but there was so much more potential. Finish the frogs, do non-toon versions of the other Neutrinos, TMNTA characters like Ninjara and the other Mutanimals, new characters who weren't around at the time of the vintage line. Arguably the character selection would overlap a LOT with the collector line but whilst that line would be a more fresh/unified take, the Vintage/Origins line would give everything in that classic vintage look/feel.

 

[RichardSimmonsRobot]

Is anyone really that interested in Mutant Mayhem 2?

The first film was entertaining, but I never need to see it again. The younger turtles dynamic was fine, but the overall design aesthetic I didn't like when I think there's better designs out there. I don't think Seth Rogan took the property that seriously beyond getting certain things right. He mostly wanted to make it a comedy, which is where he functions. Splinter's relationship with Ms. Scumbug, the constant references to "milking" mutants for mutagen, and the ending where the TMNT are attending high school were all fine comedically, but depart from what I want in a TMNT film. Them losing their secrecy and hiding out in the sewers aspect is like Spiderman or Batman losing their secret identity. It had enough changes done to that iteration where I just view it as "TMNT that wasn't meant for me," and I've just moved on in terms of interest level. Would I watch the second film, probably. Would I buy anything from that version beyond that movie ticket, not likely.

 

[Misfit]

I could be in the minority, but when fans cried out for a TMNT "Origins" type of line I think what they're mostly thinking of is what Super7 was attempting initially: old designs reimagined with modern paint and articulation. The Origins line from a mechanical standpoint doesn't work with TMNT and isn't something I'd be interested in. The turtle bodies could be reused to some degree, but what I'm not interested in is a base body with a bunch of shit clipped and slid over it leading to a bulky mess. It works for MOTU because that's basically what the vintage line was where as the Playmates line was not. The Turtles of Grayskull line was okay and a novelty, but not the sort of thing I'd want for an actual, dedicated, TMNT line.

 

[Damien]

I could be in the minority, but when fans cried out for a TMNT "Origins" type of line I think what they're mostly thinking of is what Super7 was attempting initially: old designs reimagined with modern paint and articulation. The Origins line from a mechanical standpoint doesn't work with TMNT and isn't something I'd be interested in. The turtle bodies could be reused to some degree, but what I'm not interested in is a base body with a bunch of shit clipped and slid over it leading to a bulky mess. It works for MOTU because that's basically what the vintage line was where as the Playmates line was not. The Turtles of Grayskull line was okay and a novelty, but not the sort of thing I'd want for an actual, dedicated, TMNT line.

My understanding of a TMNT 'Origins' line is more like a combo of S7 and MOTUO; take the original design and cut in more articulation, but in this case remaining at that 5"-ish scale and maintaining the overall style of the originals. It's basically smaller Super7 figures, I guess. That's my understanding, not a fact or anything.

 

[Misfit]

Yes, that's how I always saw it. The take-away being they just wanted updated vintage figures that were also cheap in comparison to what other companies were offering, but I don't know if that's possible for TMNT because almost every figure in the old line was a new mold. Even the turtles themselves didn't feature much reuse until you got to things like the mutations line. If the goal for Mattel is to create a line that pleases collectors, but is also cheap, then they may risk not pleasing anyone.

 

[Mint In Boks]

Is anyone really that interested in Mutant Mayhem 2?

Mutant Mayhem 2 feels like a contractual obligation, it was too far along when the Ellisons bought Paramount to scrap (unlike the third/fourth “seasons” of the accompanying Streaming show) so it’ll hit theaters and not make back its budget, but Mattel will sell enough kids toys and the Papa John’s tie in, the frozen pizza ties, the pictures on Tshirts and lunchboxes deals will make it not a total wash.

Mutant Mayhem feels really off because, and hear me out on this: it feels like someone at old management Paramount wanted “Rise of the Ninja Turtles” to be the future of the franchise and was just going to keep soft rebooting until it stuck.

Mutant Mayhem feels like the 87 Toon Turtles cosplaying the Netflix movie Rise Turtles, which felt like the Rise Turtles cosplaying the 2003 Turtles, and the original Rise cartoon took so many big weird choices with the franchise (I say this as a big supporter and fan of Rise) it was basically a Ninja Turtles knock off presented as an official product. So it’s this weird stacked tower of homages built on a shaky foundation that wasn’t really that “Ninja Turtles” to begin with.

Mutant Mayhem 2 will come and go and it’s off to the next reboot, which will hopefully have more of its own identity and not be “what if the Next Mutation Turtles were the Michael Bay Turtles in the 2012 universe but with the continuity of the TMNT CGI movie…”

Anyway on topic:
I think TMNT Origins sounds fun on paper until you realize what you’re signing up for.

Like there’s a lot of garbage in the old toy line… are we really expecting them to make Sumo Mikey and Party Clown Raph?

And I know every figure is someone’s favorite. Your best friend you lost touch with or a departed grandmother got it for you when you turned 7 and it was your travel figure that whole magical summer so you’d die for tongue lasher Donnie, but does anyone else want a $25 slightly off model reproduction of it that can bend it’s elbows and knees?

I think what most people want is the more unique variants and original mutants put in an updated Chronicles style collectors line, but what do I know.

 

[Damien]

If the goal for Mattel is to create a line that pleases collectors, but is also cheap, then they may risk not pleasing anyone.

I think that's the issue they're having internally; we can make it good and expensive, or cheap and not very good, which makes more sense or is neither worth doing?

That's why I suspect they're looking at how much re-use will be possible. Specifically with the Turtles, I'm sure. But you can do Shredder, then cartoon colors on the classic Shredder body, then I'm sure there's some other deep cut version they can do. Casey, then classic toy Casey recolored in comic colors. Etc etc. I think the biggest problem with such a line is the deeper cuts people really want to see are the hardest ones to re-use at all. Like.. my personal favorite... Lionheart has basically no re-use potential. He's never appeared anywhere else but the toy line (if Mattel can even legally make him, which I am not saying they can).

I would be very unsurprised if Mattel just does the four Turtles (using the same bodies with new heads, since the level of articulation will invalidate the originals having different body molds for the most part) and maybe Shredder and Casey or something. Characters where there really is potential to just re-color them a few times. That would probably be their best bet to even test the water and see if collectors want this.
Once they run out of stuff they can re-use, they could move to the 'Mattel Creations' model and offer them DTC for a higher price and see if fans still get behind it.

I think what most people want is the more unique variants and original mutants put in an updated Chronicles style collectors line, but what do I know.

I'm certain that's on the docket. Just like how Origins co-existed with Masterverse for the entire run of both lines (and co-existed with various kids' lines as well).

 

[Misfit]

I think the best approach for Mattel is to basically do Mutant Mayhem cheap (the Playmates stuff seems to sell around me) and develop a collector line that's competitive with what NECA has been putting out cost-wise and is at least visually evocative of the vintage line. I just don't know what kind of volume they're used to and if the licensing cost even makes that possible when we're comparing their collector MOTU lines to a hypothetical turtle one. I think their best resource with Playmates out of the game is that they should be able to do those characters Super7 couldn't touch. Unless it is a situation where another license is in play (Usagi, Panda Khan, maybe King Lionheart?), they should be able to do characters like Walkabout, Monty Moose, Hot Head, and the like and it doesn't matter if it looks like what Playmates did or not because they no longer have a voice in the room.

 

[Damien]

. I think their best resource with Playmates out of the game is that they should be able to do those characters Super7 couldn't touch. Unless it is a situation where another license is in play (Usagi, Panda Khan, maybe King Lionheart?), they should be able to do characters like Walkabout, Monty Moose, Hot Head, and the like and it doesn't matter if it looks like what Playmates did or not because they no longer have a voice in the room.

I'm not confident enough in my understanding of the legality here. I THINK Playmates still owns the actual designs for characters they developed, but they don't own the character itself. So Mattel could make Lionheart but he'd have to look different from the vintage toy unless they also got Playmates' permission? I dunno.

I do have to admit that I'm burnt out on Turtles enough that Mattel is going to have a hard sell with me if they -can't- do something like Lionheart and Panda Khan and maybe some properly articulated cartoon Turtles without all the bullshit cell shading and such, that actually look like the opener version of the characters. That would be cool.
There's just not a lot left in the Turtles world that I need, partly because I'm not confident anyone is ever going to give me the stuff I want. I don't need to start ANOTHER Turtles collection of 'the brothers and Shredder.'

 

[NORM]

Valid burnout, tough existing competition, potentially being priced out, obsolescence of toy-buying from the younger gen. Mattel, and just about any toy company at this point in existence, has an uphill battle.

 

[Misfit]

I'm not confident enough in my understanding of the legality here. I THINK Playmates still owns the actual designs for characters they developed, but they don't own the character itself. So Mattel could make Lionheart but he'd have to look different from the vintage toy unless they also got Playmates' permission? I dunno.

I do have to admit that I'm burnt out on Turtles enough that Mattel is going to have a hard sell with me if they -can't- do something like Lionheart and Panda Khan and maybe some properly articulated cartoon Turtles without all the bullshit cell shading and such, that actually look like the opener version of the characters. That would be cool.
There's just not a lot left in the Turtles world that I need, partly because I'm not confident anyone is ever going to give me the stuff I want. I don't need to start ANOTHER Turtles collection of 'the brothers and Shredder.'

I'm not certain either, but my understanding is a lot of those designs were by Mirage artists and owned by Eastman and Laird so they were part of the sale. If the design was owned by Playmates there's likely no chance Super7 would have been able to make what they did and all reporting from "insiders" at the time was that Playmates was pissed the moment they saw what Super7 was doing. Someone with inside knowledge of the license would have to confirm what's potentially not in play. I know everyone's favorite guy for info, Brian Flynn, made an offhand comment years ago that they couldn't do the Warriors of the Forgotten Sewer designs because Playmates owned them, but he's Flynn and it's more probable than not he was wrong.

But yes, I'm nearing burnout on turtles to the point where I'm only interested in those old characters who have been locked away in the vintage line unless the brand can sell me on a new iteration of the franchise.

 

[ChrisLyne]

My understanding of a TMNT 'Origins' line is more like a combo of S7 and MOTUO; take the original design and cut in more articulation, but in this case remaining at that 5"-ish scale and maintaining the overall style of the originals. It's basically smaller Super7 figures, I guess. That's my understanding, not a fact or anything.

So basically what Playmates 1988 Remastered line should/would have been if it got beyond 6 figures.

So something like this in terms of equivalent lines:

MOTU Classics = TMNT Ultimates
MOTU Origins = TMNT 1988 Remastered = "TMNT Origins"
MOTU Masterverse/Chronicles = TMNT Collector Line

And, yeah, burn out is real. NECA have almost completely covered OT, Mirage, 90s movies, and made a good start on 2012, S7 covered the main vintage characters and started 2003. Very few people will have the desire to start over from nearly complete collections.

If they can get somewhere close to what S7 was doing but in the classic scale (obviously a bit less articulation and paint apps for costs) then that might attract some people if the price is right but character selection will need to be good, people are going to have to trust they're going deep from the start and not just doing the same 8 or 10 characters everyone always does. In the 6.5" scale I think they need to offer something fresher than just Ultimates 2.0.

I'd love to see something at SDCC but I think it may be next Toy Fair before we get a look at anything sadly.