Four Horsemen Studios Mythic Legions

[docsilence]

Like I said, fun to dunk, also fun to collect!

Thanks for doing the numbers - I'm watching this KS because while it's fun to dunk on them, I do like their figures and I am a TTRPG super-user on crowdfunding so I'm very curious how good or bad their game actually does. Cherry-picking is a bit of a mess, too. I think ideally for me I would've loved a "get the four heroes" instead of "get the four heroes and two monsters" set but what can you do.

that green-haired repaint head is VERY cool. I was dying laughing when I saw that pop up earlier though because that was a wildly fast turnaround for reusing that head they had to pull.

 

[Poe Ghostal]

Man, as someone who makes part of my living with superhero stories the last thing I want is Batman et al going public domain because then that's all we'll ever get until the end of time. Why write anything new and risky when you can write the Batman equivalent of that trashy Winnie the Pooh slasher flick that came out a year or two ago. We had what, four Sherlock Holmes shows running at the same time? Everyone using the same IPs because viewers/readers won't touch anything they don't already know all about is the most deeply boring reality we could possibly live in. And I say that as someone having a hell of a time writing up my own versions of GI Joe file cards - I want a world where we hunger for new shit, not the same shit reflavored into something because we can't talk anyone into trying a new meal.

Just to be clear, my main reason - personally - for caring about Superman, Batman et al entering the public domain means that the Ellisons won't have corporate oversight of every Superman/Batman story now that they've bought WB.

But who knows, maybe we'll get lucky and they'll go bankrupt anyway before that.

 

[RunestoneCowboy]

Just to be clear, my main reason - personally - for caring about Superman, Batman et al entering the public domain means that the Ellisons won't have corporate oversight of every Superman/Batman story now that they've bought WB.

But who knows, maybe we'll get lucky and they'll go bankrupt anyway before that.

One can dream.

I like the new Boarrior and $45 is a decent price point, but having to also pledge for $25 worth of dice I don't need (I have plenty) makes him a little less appealing. We'll see what else gets revealed in these stretch goals.

 

[Damien]

Straight up... you will not convince me that ANYONE (+/- a few percentage points) is buying this for the game itself. And they know it. That's why it's filled with action figures that are utterly irrelevant to the game itself.

If this entire KS was a game book, some maps, gaming miniatures based on the figures, and maybe some kind of set-dressing piece or some stupid coins or what-ever-the-fuck, I would be ON BOARD. I mean, I'd still think this is a fucking idiotic idea and the 4H need to be forcibly stopped from huffing any more of their own farts, but I'd at least believe this was a genuine thing they want to do.

But that's not the case. This is an action figure Kickstarter where they figured they can crank out a bunch of useless shit no one needs or wants and charge money for it. That's it. It's PURE vanity. "We made a TTRPG!" No, you made a bunch of action figures and stuck a re-skin of SOMEONE ELSE'S TTRPG in the box with them and stuck the bill on your ardent supporters that you've brainwashed into believing you're just a tiny little studio that needs their endless support or you will collapse and stop making toys forever.

Fuck this entire thing.

 

[secondwhiteline]

Yeah, the RPG is just an Open Game License book, right? And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, plenty of great games like Pathfinder are built on that, or there's great Old School Renaissance systems built on earlier D&D editions. But all of this feels like a vanity cash grab. Almost no one is going to play this game and most of the campaign page doesn't even seem to be about the game.

The only indication I can find of what might make this game different from just playing D&D is an FAQ section giving some vague idea of unique features, and the only things they're describing in any depth at all are the "Mythic Encounter" boss battles (which just seem to be an indication that a boss battle is happening, so you can switch to a different grid map that allows for your figures to be positioned instead of the minis), and that the figures are customizable so they can gain armor and equipment alongside the characters. Which, uh, is not a game mechanic, I don't think? Unless they've expanded the D&D item slots to a much more elaborate degree. I mean, it's a point of immersion, I don't hate the idea, but it's not a sustainable foundation for a game unless new wearables deeply change your class abilities or even your entire class, Final Fantasy X-2 style.

Look, there are some games where boss battles are the entire selling point. The Dark Souls board game, very much the case - the mechanics change for those battles and also they're the only fun part of the game. But all this tells me is that the mechanic is "Play with your action figures during a normal D&D battle," which could be kind of immersive, assuming the bosses in their campaign module are built on existing Legions offerings, especially the larger-scale monsters. But it also needs a lot more than that to be a full game foundation - like, if you came up with a game that invited people to bring a favorite childhood toy and the game gave them ways to build a class based on that toy, that would be awesome. But instead, it kind of just sounds like they made figures to be an incentive to buy a game which is just a D&D that's also an incentive to buy figures. But anyone who would even entertain playing this has those older figures already. So the thing about that is that if I already have those figures, and I already have D&D books, I can just do all of this myself. I didn't need a game's invitation for that. I've already had WWE's Asuka and K from Blade Runner 2049 fight a frost troll, it was life-changing. All of this seems like a waste of time and product.

 

[fac]

The only indication I can find of what might make this game different from just playing D&D is an FAQ section giving some vague idea of unique features, and the only things they're describing in any depth at all are the "Mythic Encounter" boss battles (which just seem to be an indication that a boss battle is happening, so you can switch to a different grid map that allows for your figures to be positioned instead of the minis), and that the figures are customizable so they can gain armor and equipment alongside the characters. ...... I mean, it's a point of immersion

That's my read, they are trying to integrate the action figures into more immersive "play" by using the figures at times, using their figures as more detailed avatars for the characters, weapons and so on. So synergy between two fan bases?

Oddly enough, I feel that concept would have been a great idea for a mass-market game and figure line 40 years ago to appeal to pre-teens and teens getting into D&D, if there were more physical representations of adding weapons, tools, facing off against creatures, etc., and powering up your character over time.

 

[Buttmunch]

Funny enough their original iteration of the game didn’t include their figures. Whoever they got to evaluate their game thought that was crazy as their figures would be a clear defining characteristic unique to their game. So they took that feedback and incorporated the figures. And I think that was probably for the best. Even if they are optional, the numbers still show that they’re the driving force beyond the money. Sure, you only need one copy of the game but may pick up multiple figures, which is where the real money lies for the 4H. Maybe the game takes off, maybe it doesn’t. Only time will tell really but the figures could still be a hit with game players that want to build their D&D characters and that keeps them in game shops?

 

[Damien]

Except, no, it's a fucking terrible idea. I've made some version of this argument in threads where people are utterly shocked that D&D players aren't jumping on every D&D adjacent toyline and turning them into wild successes: You generally can't -create- collectors of something by showing them something else they like in that form. I like swords -and- action figures. I know a LOT of people in the sword collecting community. Basically none of them collect action figures, no matter which toy swords they come with. Likewise, I know a lot of toy collectors and virtually none of them collect swords, even if they're based on some toy property they like.

The idea of 'my action figures get to be used in D&D' is actually, if you really think about it, kind of fundamentally fucking stupid. Have you ever tried to play D&D with really large miniatures? Even on a REGULAR grid, if you've got six giants, two dragons, a few large-size elementals... it's a fucking mess. You're literally clearing peoples' books off the table. The idea that anyone is legitimately going to play rounds of 5E D&D combat with 7" action figures is goddamn fucking insane and is pretty much an idea that could only come from someone that does not play D&D.

Secondly, the whole 'well, I get to build my character out with all their new kit' thing is, actually, also fucking stupid. And I will explain why: D&D players don't really care about action figures. You know what they do if they want to represent their character getting new armor or a new weapon? They get a new mini. Because D&D players buy minis. Just ask @docsilence - he can't fucking stop himself.

'I get to upgrade my action figure with new items for my character!' is a very distinctly -action figure collector- thing to get excited about. Because action figure collectors like to play with their action figures. The only D&D players that do that are also already action figure collectors. And most of them aren't trying to maintain a current version of their character with an action figure because it's basically impossible anyway.

What I'm saying is that the 4H are trying to go after two entirely different markets with this KS, maybe hoping/assuming there's a lot more overlap than there actually ever will be. And further, they're doing it by short-changing the market they're actually 'good' at, and trying to ENTER a market they know basically NOTHING about. Because they are vain, stupid fools that have bought into their own hype and actually think Aaak'lA-Gamarthad'ax is a clever fucking fantasy name. Goddamn, it's all just so fucking wildly stupid.

 

[thewyldman]

I think the of idea using figures instead of miniatures is neat

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Damien]

I think the of idea using figures instead of miniatures is neat

Yeah, it's neat.
And wildly impractical and ridiculous.

If you're like.. Critical Role? Sure. They can build a 12' x 24' table with side-tables for dice and books. Most people that buy gaming books? Almost certainly not. That's why MOST wargamer's don't play games at their own houses; only so many people can afford to give up the space a 2000 pt. Warhammer 40k game takes up.

 

[docsilence]

I could picture how that conversation went and it's one of those times where if you're trying to expand your audience, you might want to do some market research instead of asking your friends. From an action figure company perspective, it probably SOUNDS like genius, but

1. like, four D&D action figure lines tanked in the past few years, there's a disconnect between the two communities (I say this as someone who BOUGHT those figures!)
2. GMs do spend a fuck ton of money, but so many players won't even buy a handbook for the game they play, there's a smaller audience amongst TTRPG players who will spend 50 bucks on a figure, so you're already narrowing your audience
3. I'd want some numbers before launching a KS of who prefers theater of the mind versus maps and minis, because the former is a harder sell on *stuffs,* and the latter is likely DEEPLY invested in maps and minis of a certain scale (this is why I really thought they'd go harder on 28/32mm Mythic Legion branded minis!) (AH, I SEE @Damien ALREADY CALLED ME OUT ON THIS)

Just common sense "who's the buyer here" stuff a smart company would ask.

I actually think if they did a vanity purchase option where you could buy parts to create YOUR character as an action figure they'd draw in a SOME non-4H fans (Heroforge but action figures) because a lot of young players like vanity items for their characters, but the logistics of that would be a nightmare. But as this is set up, I think it's a KS for 4H fans who will buy more action figures and maybe a handful get the game because it's just there. (I mean, under 50 people bought the core rulebook so far which is generally the biggest pledge level for any TTRPG on KS.)

In the end though, it's the thing Shawn Merwin always says about game design: if people are playing the game a year after it comes out it's a good game. If they're playing it five years later it's a very good game. Ten years it's a GREAT game. If nobody plays it, it is what it is.

 

[fac]

D&D players don't really care about action figures. ... 'I get to upgrade my action figure with new items for my character!' is a very distinctly -action figure collector- thing to get excited about.

Well, maybe that is their target, action figure collectors who might decide to give their game a try?

I feel like those of you who are very into the TTRPG stuff are assuming this is for you, and not casuals who might be intrigued by connecting the toys to a game in a direct way.

I'm not disputing that this may have limited to no appeal to folks who buy dozens of games and have the miniatures and all of that. But it may have appeal to others?

Anyway, they pretty much said that you only break out the action figures at specific times for specific purposes, while using the matching miniatures most of the time.

 

[fac]

Just want to shout out this Rockwell painting, part of his Four Freedoms series - you can see the original at his museum in Stockbridge, and the story behind it is pretty interesting for these times.

 

[secondwhiteline]

Yeah, the thing is: I like MTG and D&D and tons of other games and I'm the exact market for gaming-based figures, but most gamers are spending too much money on their games to buy figures! And yeah, to an extent, gamers have been taught to buy figures, but they're not going to give up those extremely practical little miniatures to mess around with giant figures. Damien's deeply right in that everything about this that triggered a "Well, that might be neat" reaction from me is from the figure collector part of me, not the gamer part of me.

Meanwhile the gamer part of me pretty immediately thought this: "The figures-in-game idea is cute, but the logistics of stopping play so you can change your maps to put a bigger map on the table and then populating that with giant figures that require posing and remaining steady enough to stand while everyone is rolling dice and checking their books for rules clarifications and everything, that all sounds like a huge pain to implement for real."

And then the figure collector part of me had a realization: "If you're the exact right person for this who's halfway between a figure collector and a gamer, you're absolutely the DM here and making your friends play your copy that you bought for the figures, since there's about no chance in hell that any friend group in the world has 2 people who bought into this KS independently of each other, and the last thing you want is them getting their grubby, Cheeto-dusted hands all over your Mythic Legions figures."

 

[Damien]

Well, maybe that is their target, action figure collectors who might decide to give their game a try?

To what end? The 4H are not a TTRPG company. They are a toy company. Why do they -want- people who collect their action figures to 'give this game a try?' It's circular logic - the game has to exist so people can try it, and people want to try it because it exists. And the entire history of TTRPGs already has ample evidence that they're unlikely to convert very many people to suddenly becoming gamers. Which means the core audience for a TTRPG needs to be people that already like and actively play TTRPGs. In which case you're back to - TTRPG fans don't care about this project because it's clearly designed for action figure collectors.

I feel like those of you who are very into the TTRPG stuff are assuming this is for you, and not casuals who might be intrigued by connecting the toys to a game in a direct way.

Those of us who are very into the TTRPG stuff have the experience to say what -gets people into TTRPGs-. I've been watching people get into, and get out of, TTRPGs (and wargames) for 35 years. Go back to, for example, how many new TTRPG fans were created by there being an official Star Wars game? In my experience - startlingly few. You know who played it? People very into TTRPGs that were waiting for a good Star Wars game. That's who.

Especially now, in the year of our dear and fluffy lord 2026; there just aren't very many people out there, certainly not the kind that follow Kickstarters and pay 40 dollars for action figures, that don't know what TTRPGs are and haven't had at least some passing familiarity with them. If you're a huge fantasy guy, the kind that really gets into something like Mythic Legions to begin with, you almost certainly know what D&D is and you've already decided whether you want to try it or not.

I'm not disputing that this may have limited to no appeal to folks who buy dozens of games and have the miniatures and all of that. But it may have appeal to others?

The issue is - what others? The people you're talking about are the people that play TTRPGs. It's like making a series of golf shoes with stupid Mythic Legions names on them and saying 'yeah, golfers don't want these but maybe NEW people will spring up all over the place that suddenly really want to play golf because they can finally do it with their favorite Mythic Legions character emblazoned on their feet.' It's just almost certainly never going to happen.

Anyway, they pretty much said that you only break the action figures at specific times for specific purposes, while using the matching miniatures most of the time.

Yeah, I know. That's way dumber. You've just added a very finicky, pointless, stupid gimmick to the part of D&D that's already long and complex. Which, again, any actual D&D player would know -- and they don't, because they're not. They're fucking carpet baggers (and thieves, and liars - I feel compelled to always add).

Also, the figures-in-game idea is cute, but the logistics of stopping play so you can change your maps to put a bigger map on the table and then populating that with giant figures that require posing and remaining steady enough to stand while everyone is rolling dice and checking their books for rules clarifications and everything, that all sounds like a huge pain to implement for real.

True story... I tried to run a little one-shot for my son some years ago using HACKS figures because he loved HACKS figures and was interested in gaming. It was a fucking nightmare. Granted, I knew it would be a bad idea - but I was hoping I could make it work at least well enough for my son to have a good time. It's definitely not the same as trying to please a table of legit TTRPGers. And it still sucked asssssss.

In the end though, it's the thing Shawn Merwin always says about game design: if people are playing the game a year after it comes out it's a good game. If they're playing it five years later it's a very good game. Ten years it's a GREAT game. If nobody plays it, it is what it is.

And I would bet money that no one actually plays this fucking game, basically ever. In fact, just judging by comments here and elsewhere, no one even fucking intends to. All the defenses for this amount to 'but what if someone DOES want to?' It's never '-I- am excited to play this game.' Like ever.