TTRPGs & D&D

[JakeEkiss]

I think the DM I was with this weekend is actively uncomfortable with combat, and as we've all pointed out, there are far better games if you don't like fighting. I think Witchlight really needs to get that conversation out up front. It's the only campaign book that seems to actively dissuade conflict.

I know why it happens, but it's always funny when folks try to force a game like D&D into a non-combat mode. Like, 2/3 of the core rulebooks for the game are either things to kill or the tools and methods to kill them. It's a game deeply entrenched in combat as a mechanical necessity.

Like you say, there are other games where that isn't true, but D&D, because it's the industry icon, people want it to do everything when it's not designed to.

 

[docsilence]

I know why it happens, but it's always funny when folks try to force a game like D&D into a non-combat mode. Like, 2/3 of the core rulebooks for the game are either things to kill or the tools and methods to kill them. It's a game deeply entrenched in combat as a mechanical necessity.

Like you say, there are other games where that isn't true, but D&D, because it's the industry icon, people want it to do everything when it's not designed to.

Honestly, I love using D&D as my combat mechanics because I haaaaaaaaate overly prescriptive story or roleplay mechanics. I can do the story stuff on my own but I need a physics engine for when someone hits someone else with a flanged mace. But I know a lot of people love games with social mechanics baked in and my gawd there's a million of 'em better at it than D&D.

 

[Damien]

Ugh. I do think one of the worst mistakes a GM can ever make is deciding 'D&D, no matter what.' The right tool for the right job. D&D still carries with it all the baggage, or most of the baggage, of its roots being in tabletop wargaming. I would never bust out tenth edition Warhammer 40k rules and be like 'okay guys, time for some psychological horror.' Wtf are you talking about - those are literally rules for making little plastic men shoot each other. Why are we installing Chaosium sanity rules instead of just USING the Chaosium game?

I've played with DMs that spent a lot of time grafting different systems onto D&D to try to work around what it is, but I think I've learned it's better to just play what it is and understand what it isn't. If 90% of your game is going to be courtly intrigue and basically no combat, and you are using D&D... well, I'll never say you're playing a game wrong, but I do think you're gonna have a bad time. Or a worse time than you could have.
As much as I love it, I actually blame the OGL for this. During the 3rd Edition days, the OGL caused an absolute explosion in every company wanting to take the easy way out and just make any and every concept into a game that fits neatly into the d20 D&D rules. And it convinced a lot of people getting into D&D in their formative years that D&D was literally the solution to every possible gaming question.

 

[docsilence]

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, too. Or maybe a self-perpetuating machine. The OGL really does play a factor - if you could slap 5e compatible on a Kickstarter it'd do numbers that blew anything else away. I remember Jeremy from Three Black Halflngs addressing a listener complaint about how their show had a D&D focus and they ran D&D actual plays primarily and he flat out said on the air: look, we've run other systems. We do episodes featuring other systems. We have the listener numbers. We have the subscriber numbers. You want to do a podcast about your favorite system? I support you, I wish you luck, go for it, but we are trying to survive and make a living out here and the fraction of listeners we get is too small when we change systems. Hell, Critical Role has the biggest viewership in the industry and I watch those numbers - 3k for their own system (Daggerheart or Candela Obscura, the latter of which is DELIGHTFUL) and the got 100k last week when they switched back to D&D. But that's the arts in general. Gotta feed the beast that feeds you back, be it pop music, D&D, or scraping the serial numbers off a major comic book IP and hoping nobody notices.

Two of the people I DMed an actual play for a few years ago left and switched systems and they got single-digit views/listens for a five month run. I mean it was humiliating to watch. But I admire their attempt.

Anyway, all this and I'm thinking I will have gone my ENTIRE life without being a PC in a long-term game from beginning to end, but I will have DMed something like 8-10 multi-year campaigns to completion since 2019, and it feels like both an accomplishment and like I've missed out.

 

[Damien]

but I will have DMed something like 8-10 multi-year campaigns to completion since 2019, and it feels like both an accomplishment and like I've missed out.

If it makes you feel better, I'm not sure if I've PLAYED 10 multi-year campaigns to completion. That seems to be a rarity. I'd hazard to guess most games fizzle out before they actually end.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

12 sessions at the carnival. Holy dooley. We were out in one at least. But then we ended up in some sort of garden maze and that was where the first DM really wanted to milk it with lots of Alice in Wonderland tricks. Eat me, drink me, etc

The multi year campaign I'm in, that DM mixes bits of all that content around his own plan. We started with the carnival, but it didn't lead to the Fey. Now we're in "Strahd", but heavily reskinned. Total conversion, as we'd say in PC gaming.

Both of these ideas sound very cool.

I remember Jeremy from Three Black Halflngs addressing a listener complaint about how their show had a D&D focus and they ran D&D actual plays primarily and he flat out said on the air: look, we've run other systems. We do episodes featuring other systems. We have the listener numbers. We have the subscriber numbers. You want to do a podcast about your favorite system? I support you, I wish you luck, go for it, but we are trying to survive and make a living out here and the fraction of listeners we get is too small when we change systems. Hell, Critical Role has the biggest viewership in the industry and I watch those numbers - 3k for their own system (Daggerheart or Candela Obscura, the latter of which is DELIGHTFUL) and the got 100k last week when they switched back to D&D.

I dislike actual plays, so I am very much not the audience, but this never made sense to me. The rules are set dressing for everything that happens around them: interesting character moments, badass action, or funny/poignant role play.

Maybe I'm the exact wrong person to ask, though. I've been skeptical of authority since I was about five years old. I only want to follow rules that make sense to me. By the time we were five sessions into 5e, I was saying, "This ain't it, chief." I've been aggressively chasing the perfect alternative for two years.

 

[altcunningham]

Yeah, I really enjoyed both of those events. The maze had a lot of cool moments so I was bummed when the goblins screwed that up for us.

Re system, I forget, have you tried the Fantasy Flight system for Star Wars? I really enjoy it as a storytelling system.

 

[JakeEkiss]

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, too. Or maybe a self-perpetuating machine. The OGL really does play a factor - if you could slap 5e compatible on a Kickstarter it'd do numbers that blew anything else away. I remember Jeremy from Three Black Halflngs addressing a listener complaint about how their show had a D&D focus and they ran D&D actual plays primarily and he flat out said on the air: look, we've run other systems. We do episodes featuring other systems. We have the listener numbers. We have the subscriber numbers. You want to do a podcast about your favorite system? I support you, I wish you luck, go for it, but we are trying to survive and make a living out here and the fraction of listeners we get is too small when we change systems. Hell, Critical Role has the biggest viewership in the industry and I watch those numbers - 3k for their own system (Daggerheart or Candela Obscura, the latter of which is DELIGHTFUL) and the got 100k last week when they switched back to D&D. But that's the arts in general. Gotta feed the beast that feeds you back, be it pop music, D&D, or scraping the serial numbers off a major comic book IP and hoping nobody notices.

Two of the people I DMed an actual play for a few years ago left and switched systems and they got single-digit views/listens for a five month run. I mean it was humiliating to watch. But I admire their attempt.

Anyway, all this and I'm thinking I will have gone my ENTIRE life without being a PC in a long-term game from beginning to end, but I will have DMed something like 8-10 multi-year campaigns to completion since 2019, and it feels like both an accomplishment and like I've missed out.

What is mind-boggling to me is that I saw Critical Role fans who were really annoyed with the notion campaign 4 *might* be done with their proprietary system. "Too much change too fast" I saw someone say. I was dumbfounded and asked them "Is the main draw of Critical Role, the dice mechanics? Really? Do you watch because they use constitution saves instead of stamina checks?" Like, somehow it's not the professional actors or the production budget or the narrative crafted by any of the GMs. Nah. Fuck all that. Apparently they just want spell slots...

It really blew me away. I still can't really wrap my head around it. Like, if I were the CR crew I'd be so bummed out by that. Instead of being able to spin the largest RPG audience you could hope for into loving your own output, you have to continue to be a support unit for a legacy game owned by Hasbro. It was so sad to me that they kept with D&D instead of the game they seemingly designed to match their playstyle from the ground up.

If it makes you feel better, I'm not sure if I've PLAYED 10 multi-year campaigns to completion. That seems to be a rarity. I'd hazard to guess most games fizzle out before they actually end.

As I recall when WotC did their surveys back in the day the vast majority of campaigns fizzle before 10th level. A large cross section of games don't make it to the 10th session (usually for scheduling or personality reasons, but still). The idea that almost nobody even makes it halfway up the level ladder is, I think, one of the more damning indictments of D&D as a system.

 

[docsilence]

If it makes you feel better, I'm not sure if I've PLAYED 10 multi-year campaigns to completion. That seems to be a rarity. I'd hazard to guess most games fizzle out before they actually end.

Yeah, that's why when the last campaign I wrapped up ended everyone was telling the one new guy "dude your first campaign actually ended properly instead of died out mid-way? Don't get used to this!" (We're hitting session 30 of his second campaign this week and ended last episode with his estranged son with his sword at his dad's throat.)

What is mind-boggling to me is that I saw Critical Role fans who were really annoyed with the notion campaign 4 *might* be done with their proprietary system. "Too much change too fast" I saw someone say. I was dumbfounded and asked them "Is the main draw of Critical Role, the dice mechanics? Really? Do you watch because they use constitution saves instead of stamina checks?" Like, somehow it's not the professional actors or the production budget or the narrative crafted by any of the GMs. Nah. Fuck all that. Apparently they just want spell slots...

It really blew me away. I still can't really wrap my head around it. Like, if I were the CR crew I'd be so bummed out by that. Instead of being able to spin the largest RPG audience you could hope for into loving your own output, you have to continue to be a support unit for a legacy game owned by Hasbro. It was so sad to me that they kept with D&D instead of the game they seemingly designed to match their playstyle from the ground up.

Honestly, I think CR has made a BRILLIANT business decision, because they have farmed out their own system to several other high-profile actual plays to take the risk of the new system while they can keep the audience for their 4th campaign using the more popular system. It's diabolical. I'm honestly curious to see if it fucks up Avantris's numbers switching to DH or bumps them up higher by association. If it's the latter, CR did them a huge favor, if the former, oof. (Although the reason CR didn't use Daggerheart is it's been filming long before their own system was finalized and the DM and all the players were very familiar with D&D. The show isn't about game mechanics really, and they knew they'd lose momentum fumbling to learn the rules of an unfinished system, especially with a GM who didn't know it himself. I listened to an interview about it and it is VERY much a business decision.)

And to be fair, that's every artist. I get a ration of shit every time I don't release a superhero book and try to do something for my own joy and I'm a nobody. If I had a huge audience I'd just hold my nose and be a dancing monkey so I could keep food on the table and pay off my mortgage.

I dislike actual plays, so I am very much not the audience, but this never made sense to me. The rules are set dressing for everything that happens around them: interesting character moments, badass action, or funny/poignant role play.

I might actually be the target audience because I listen to multiple APs every week and the first thing I look for when I want to learn a new system is a good AP - I want to hear people playing the game in real time to absorb the rules because my brain locks in on people using the rules FOR THE STORY far more than just reading the text or worse, listening to some guy like me drone on about it on his Youtube channel. Unfortunately there's a veritable ocean of catastrophically boring APs out there. If I ran a TTRPG company the first thing I'd do is get some charismatic improvisers to play my game for 25 sessions on air. But the cast has got to be good at it.

Also, fans of everything are fucking nuts. Don't underestimate your audience wanting to feel smart and smarmy knowing a familiar ruleset while they watch.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

Re system, I forget, have you tried the Fantasy Flight system for Star Wars? I really enjoy it as a storytelling system.

I haven't. Unfortunately, the sequel trilogy killed my interest in Star Wars. Not to say I wouldn't play a game set in the Star Wars universe, but I wouldn't seek it out without a recommendation.

On the subject of other systems, I was just recruited to play a game of Mythic Bastionland. It's an OSR in a dream-like Arthurian setting. Ordinarily, none of those buzzwords would appeal to me, but I was hit with a bolt of inspiration as the DM described his vision.

This is the pitch from their Kickstarter:

In Mythic Bastionland you begin as a young knight errant, seeking the glory to lead warbands, earn a place in court, and rule your own domain. Glory is found in hunting the Myths of this world, manifesting them into reality while protecting the Realm from their strange influence.

Each player is one of 72 Knights, with personal equipment, a unique ability, and a passion that fuels their spirit. As your glory grows, you might eventually embark on the legendary City Quest, an impossible challenge to find The City itself, a shining metropolis seen only in dreams.

Including myself, my group has had four different DMs. This would be the fifth. We've played high fantasy, grimdark, and sword and sorcery. We've played a traditional story game and a sandboxy dungeon crawl. I love all of that, but the idea of something new is extremely exciting to me. It's like discovering a new position after 15 years of missionary. What we were doing was great, but variety is the spice of life. (I think that's one of the reasons that I was so desperate to break my group out of the 5e rut.)

D&D 5e: it's like missionary.

Put it on the box, Wizards.

 

[docsilence]

I swear the Star Wars game I always go back to is that olllllld West End Games one from a billion years ago. It just worked. Though the d20 version from the early aughts holds up pretty good. I'd run that again. The Fantasy Flight one looked great but any game that requires me to translate dice when I run almost all games remotely and can't force players to buy specialty dice puts me off.

Eh, we can bash or love games til the end of time, but I always love Shawn Merwin's barometer for a good RPG game vs. a great game vs. a bad game. Did you play through an entire game (campaign, whatever) and have fun? that's a good game. Are you still playing it in five or ten years? That's a GREAT game. (Did you put it away mid-session and break out a board game? That's a BAD TTRPG.) People have been asking him if he thinks Daggerheart or Shadowdark or Draw Steel will be the D&D killer and that's his answer to it (he's a fan of all three). Staying power is hard to predict.

 

[JakeEkiss]

Although the reason CR didn't use Daggerheart is it's been filming long before their own system was finalized and the DM and all the players were very familiar with D&D. The show isn't about game mechanics really, and they knew they'd lose momentum fumbling to learn the rules of an unfinished system, especially with a GM who didn't know it himself. I listened to an interview about it and it is VERY much a business decision.)

See, the filming thing makes sense to me. I'm not a regular CR viewer (nothing against it, but I've never made it through an episode, though I watch clips occassionally) so I had no idea how far in advance they film seasons. That's a practical concern that tracks. It more depressed me from the fan angle that the fans somehow thought that the system is why they liked the show and not, y'know, the very charismatic and talented performers/players. It just seemed to me a wild misunderstanding of what made CR fun to watch.

People have been asking him if he thinks Daggerheart or Shadowdark or Draw Steel will be the D&D killer and that's his answer to it (he's a fan of all three). Staying power is hard to predict.

The whole "will this be a D&D killer" is a terrible question anyway and he probably knows it. Nobody working on those games thinks they're going to supplant a game that has 40 yrs of pedigree and brand recognition in the space. It wouldn't matter how good they are mechanically, the cultural momentum just isn't there and in the modern media landscape simply can't be built in the same way. Like, people routinely use "D&D" as the name of the activity regardless of the system they're playing. It's like Kleenex. Even if you aren't playing the game proper, it's dominance of the space would take a very very long time to wash out.

 

[altcunningham]

I haven't. Unfortunately, the sequel trilogy killed my interest in Star Wars. Not to say I wouldn't play a game set in the Star Wars universe, but I wouldn't seek it out without a recommendation.

Good news is they use it for anything they do. They break it down here.

I really love it with a good storyteller. I've mostly run it, and you can do things like...

You did succeed on your shot but it's still a failure In that you did shoot the two Stormtroopers but one of their bodies fell against the alarm panel, which is now blaring.

You're constantly coming up with reasons for what these critical successes and critical failures are. It's nicer than D&D where it's like. Okay cool you critically missed. That's your turn. Like a movie, and that's why I really think it works for Star Wars and why I ran Star Wars like Indiana Jones, you can be successful while all hell is breaking loose around you which just provides more opportunity. It just always feel in motion for everyone.

I've also reskinned it for a superhero game which I will detail later because that was one of my favorite things I've ever created.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/6/27/genesys/

 

[altcunningham]

I swear the Star Wars game I always go back to is that olllllld West End Games one from a billion years ago. It just worked. Though the d20 version from the early aughts holds up pretty good. I'd run that again. The Fantasy Flight one looked great but any game that requires me to translate dice when I run almost all games remotely and can't force players to buy specialty dice puts me off.

I got you, bunkie.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-dice-app/

App

But for my games everyone just used

EOTE Dice

eote-dice-roller.netlify.app

Dice Roller 2

A RPG tool site with a table top token app and dice roller for table top role playing games.. RollAdvantage aims to provide tools and resources for table top role playing games. All the tools aim to be easy to use, fast and accessible on the fly, and optionally in-depth if possible in order to...

rolladvantage.com

There's others.

 

[Fletch]

I swear the Star Wars game I always go back to is that olllllld West End Games one from a billion years ago. It just worked. Though the d20 version from the early aughts holds up pretty good.

I think I played one single session of the West End Star Wars RPG when I was a kid. Had such a good time with it, though, that it's forever what I think is the default Star Wars system.

Played a bit of the D20 version too during the Living Force days. It plays a well as any other D20 system, but since that's a system I liked, it was fine. I made the mistake of making a starfighter pilot character, though, and never came across a single opportunity to fly a starfighter.