Star Wars Movie and Streaming Series Discussion

(since we seem to be moving on from the spoiler tag)

I am going to point out that Cassian and Kleya are brother and sister. Not literally but through their adopted father Luthen. They are siblings thru the rebellion and thru their mutual sacrifices. That's more important than "blood" and certainly more important than "Star Wars rhyming". The loss of their biological families is a wound that never really heals for either of them. Its part of who they are and what they do.
 
I haven't read everyone's reactions yet so sorry if this was already noted, but the thing that keeps bothering me about Luthen's final story arc is - he didn't rig his shop to self-destruct?!

This MASTER of games never thought he might one day have to blow the the shit out of his secret rebel base on Coruscant? Before ALL his enemies find ALL his secrets and equipment that communicates TO the rebels? Pouring the silver on it dramatically slowly is one thing - not destroying it all the second he hears the doorbell is another. There should have been self-destruct buttons selectively hidden all around the room, like the listening device on the art - or snap charges built into the doors - y'know, plan your exit on the way in.

This would have taken Dedra with him - so move her to the door, or have her land under a ledge - or heck, have the force of the explosion throw her over the edge of the platform - a final Wilhelm scream. Or rewrite it. But I can't believe he and especially Kleya, with their love of explosives, did not have a self-destruct within arms reach at all times.

The only hesitation I can see in this plan is if one of them thinks the other is inside - but he knows Kleya wasn't. So this felt extremely stupid to me.

Also, Kleya in the safe house was slow. Why are all these people talking instead of vacating? Felt like a really weird stall for extra screentime. She doesn't want to go to Yavin? I get the hesitation, but... really? The alternative is what exactly?
 
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My take:
Schizm said:
he didn't rig his shop to self-destruct?!
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Definitely would have been the smart way to go, but the only reason, in story, I can see not to do that is all the genuine antiquities he may genuinely care about.
Schizm said:
This would have taken Dedra with him
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Right, that would have been incredible and satisfying and solved a lot, but also wouldn't have given Kleya her final moment with him, for what it's worth.
Schizm said:
The alternative is what exactly?
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The alternative is giving completely into despair over losing not only the guy who raised you and made you everything you are (essentially by your hand, no less), but completely shedding everything you are because that life is completely over, thus just lying down and letting the Empire roll over you. I get any frustration over her hesitancy, but I also get the feeling of 'well... fuck it.' At that point, she was looking for reasons to give up.
 
The explosion didn't have to kill him - maybe it just wipes out the entirety of the back room - that big wall in the middle could have been a bomb shelter wall - but he also could have survived the explosion and the plot would have remained the same. And that's also how Dedra survives.

Kleya almost died by the deadliest killer in SW history - exhaustion. It has slayed so many and last night I rewatched the first part of Rogue One and realized it claimed another victim - Galen Erso. "I have so much to tell you" DEAD. Yeah, he had some kind of wound, but he basically gave up with EVERYTHING HE EVER WANTED STARING HIM IN THE FACE.
 
Well... I don't blame Kleya so much, and exhaustion isn't what would have killed her, just like Galen had kinda just gotten blown up.
 
i) Indiana Jones had a golden opportunity to deny Belloq and his German pals the Ark. But he couldn't bring himself to do it because he knew the importance of such a priceless artifact. When history is controlled by fascists, when proven historical narratives can be re-written by these people as to have only ever been their way, with all other documents destroyed, all evidence to the contrary is important and valuable. I wasn't surprised at all that Luthen didn't have the place C4'd up the wazoo.

ii) Additionally, we are talking about Coruscant, the seat of Imperial power, the most dangerous place in the galaxy for a non-Imperial. Who knows what kind of measures are in place checking for explosives. What if a random check finds them one day when there's no actual suspicion involved?

iii) The man himself admitted it previously, he has an ego. Luthen loves the drama and theatricality of pulling one over the bastards but also too proud to go to Yavin. He's tired, he knows the jig is up and has nowhere to go so he has his little verbal sparring session to buy more time for the acid to do its work on the radio, all while rubbing it all into his bête noire's face. Now personally, yeah, I'd have had a pistol tucked away and just headshotted myself while she was distracted but hey.

As for Kleya, she was at her lowest ebb in decades. She'd lost everything, similarly saw no future for herself on Yavin and really only wanted to pass on the info from Lonni. She was ready to die too but thankfully, Cass refused to let that happen.

Personally, I prefer to engage with the story and themes, and what provides the most drama. Narratives more concerned with appeasing CinemaSins fans rarely interest me. People are not robots, very, very few will behave perfectly logical in any and all situations.
 
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I love that every argument about Star Wars can be put to bed by Mark Hamill quoting Harrison Ford:
"It ain't that kind of movie, kid."

But more so with the case of the shop, I did have the thought - could he done that? But then you pull the threads of what we lose narratively if we do - the bottle episode giving Kleya her grand moment, Dedra Meero's brutally perfect conclusion to her narrative, the gasp-worthy moment with Luthen with his back turned, the introspection and panic back at ISB headquarters...

It's funny, sometimes you complicate the story by removing the simplest solution (literally the go-to move for Arrowverse shows, dragging out a plot by having characters make bad decisions) but sometimes removing the simplest solution opens the door to greater storytelling options.
 
docsilence said:
sometimes removing the simplest solution opens the door to greater storytelling options
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True. I've found sometimes my second idea will cascade into a series of 'oh, holy shit, then this will happen', and I feel like if I'm excited for it, the reader may be too.
 
Revox said:
Personally, I prefer to engage with the story and themes, and what provides the most drama. Narratives more concerned with appeasing CinemaSins fans rarely interest me. People are not robots, very, very few will behave perfectly logical in any and all situations.
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We all can agree Andor is a smart show - both on-screen and off. Having no self-destruct is possibly the stupidest thing Luthen could do. He just shot someone in cold blood - he's ruthless, and he knows there is no future for him. So not following through on literally the first thing we learn about him - plan your exit on the way in - is not smart or good writing.

Have your opinion, but don't write mine off in such a rude manner.
 
But he had his exit planned, as he said they had run out of perfect. I don't see how his behavior is inconsistent or bad writing though. Time ran out and he improvised.
 
The other thing to consider if Luthen was getting to a point where he couldn't keep it all together anymore. He wasn't at the top of his game, and even flips out to Kleya about no longer being able to keep all the threads straight. The rebellion had outgrown his guidance, and he was also getting sloppier. His final episode, Luthen actually seems like he's kinda ready to cash out altogether anyway.

Again, I don't see bad writing because the theme feels consistent. They made a choice when writing it, very deliberately, which I can't say is 'bad'. I definitely see you would have gone a different way, but I wouldn't call your choice bad writing either.
 
Schizm said:
I haven't read everyone's reactions yet so sorry if this was already noted, but the thing that keeps bothering me about Luthen's final story arc is - he didn't rig his shop to self-destruct?!

This MASTER of games never thought he might one day have to blow the the shit out of his secret rebel base on Coruscant? Before ALL his enemies find ALL his secrets and equipment that communicates TO the rebels? Pouring the silver on it dramatically slowly is one thing - not destroying it all the second he hears the doorbell is another. There should have been self-destruct buttons selectively hidden all around the room, like the listening device on the art - or snap charges built into the doors - y'know, plan your exit on the way in.

This would have taken Dedra with him - so move her to the door, or have her land under a ledge - or heck, have the force of the explosion throw her over the edge of the platform - a final Wilhelm scream. Or rewrite it. But I can't believe he and especially Kleya, with their love of explosives, did not have a self-destruct within arms reach at all times.

The only hesitation I can see in this plan is if one of them thinks the other is inside - but he knows Kleya wasn't. So this felt extremely stupid to me.

Also, Kleya in the safe house was slow. Why are all these people talking instead of vacating? Felt like a really weird stall for extra screentime. She doesn't want to go to Yavin? I get the hesitation, but... really? The alternative is what exactly?
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I had the same thoughts for the most part, except I thought it was really strange Luthen wouldn't have a cyanide capsule (or the Star Wars equivalent) in a hollow tooth or on his person somewhere. With all that was on the line at that point with Yavin and the Rebellion, dude knew he couldn't be captured. That whole sequence was a little wonky — why wouldn't Dedra just have immediately stunned him if she thought he was up to something with his back turned to her?

I also agree on the safe house, though I feel that sequence was ultimately there to give Melchi and K2S0 more to do, it just took a bit of time to get to that point. I did love Kleya's reaction to opening the door to Andor, though.

All this said, they're very minor issues in what was otherwise a glorious finale and series. I watched Rogue One last night and the series actually makes the movie — which was already pretty great in my mind — even better. It's kind of an incredible feat if you think about it.
 
GrumpyMatt said:
why wouldn't Dedra just have immediately stunned him if she thought he was up to something with his back turned to her?
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Or why didn't she charge in with a squad of troops right off the bat? She wasn't as cunning as she thought she was. She can certainly outmaneuver the worst mother-in-law in the galaxy, but when it comes to tracking down the person setting up several rebel cells across the galaxy, Dedra did so simply by receiving information via an email mishap. She chose to savor a moment rather than handle business swiftly. When it came to violence, Dedra always froze and shrank though. It was very in character for her to gloat then panic when she realized she was in over her head.

We've touched on Partagaz, but I really love his face as he listens to Nemik's manifesto. Is he realizing the Rebellion isn't a disease at all, and rather it's the Empire that needs to be cured?

I dunno... this show was gripping as hell and I'm already planning a rewatch.
 
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