Star Wars Movie and Streaming Series Discussion

[Super Camel]

Yeah, last night's episodes of Andor were next level shit. They were incredible episodes, and I am so geared up for the finale it's not even funny. Also, I loved how it crossed over with Rebels. It's crazy to me how many folks didn't watch Rebels. It is so much fun and has some very iconic moments in Star Wars history within it. But when Ahsoka was on, I loved that show (having watched Rebels), then so many other fans didn't care for Ahsoka (because they didn't watch Rebels).

It just surprised me that so many people skipped Rebels.

But with Andor, unlike Ahsoka, Rebels isn't as needed. But if you watched Rebels, it was just that much more fun.

 

[Damien]

It just surprised me that so many people skipped Rebels.

Despite the general positivity surrounding them, I have found that I NEVER like the animated Star Wars. I think part of it is that my brain is like 'Star Wars = Live Action' so I start with some detachment, combined with I NEVER like the art style they choose for the SW shows, combined with just not caring for the content of the shows (probably way less true of Rebels than something like Clone Wars).

Right. My son got into the OT immediately when I showed it to him. The PT took him a while to warm up to, and the ST he still hasn't gotten into, even though he was around the same age for the ST as I was for the OT.

My son is the opposite. I think the OT is legitimately his least favorite thing in all of Star Wars. He's told me outright that he finds it boring and even the lightsaber fights just aren't very good. He finds the PT and ST way more exciting, but I think that's the put. Those movies were definitely made for a younger, perhaps more video-gamey audience that moreso needs that constant stream of motion and action. And by PT, I kind of mean post-TPM. Attack really ramped up how much action is in every 30 minutes of movie.

You're probably right. I just know, at least several years ago, the easiest greenlight to get was pitching either an adaptation of a successful property (book, comic, or some other medium), or a remake of a successful film/show.

I think that's true generally, but for something like Star Wars, I'd say the easiest greenlight is pitching 'more Star Wars' rather than 'different Star Wars.' They want that built-in base that will watch it, or hate-watch it, specifically because of an attachment to the originals. If you say 'we're redoing the OT' - I think the writing would be on the wall that it would either be REALLY successful, or no one would want to see it. That's a big risk for companies that are famously risk-averse.

You know what... next time I have an hour or two to spare, I might start a thread that's just my broad strokes take on completely rebuilding Star Wars and see if anyone wants to post their own version, changes, etc. Just a whole thread about 'here's what I'd do.' Just for fun.

You assholes roped me into writing a 30-minute reply.

And I'm just going to clip this because I -am- an asshole and also just generally agree with pretty much everything you said.

Remember when Star Wars was a space Western? Disney doesn't.

This. And to your other point about your D&D campaign as well, actually. I think Star Wars is at its best when it's a space western that includes occasional wandering Ronin, or disaffected Civil War soldiers still carrying that old saber around. I'm super biased here, but I LIKE swords in my sci-fi. Some settings just do 'lots of swords' better, and I think Star Wars does 'fewer swords' better.
If I were running a tabletop sci-fi game (which I have done, but it was under GURPS), I would totally allow a laser sword or a fusion sword or a monomolecular-edged sword or whatever. I think it's cool for that stuff to exist. But it should feel exotic. When someone pulls one of those out, everyone else in the room should be like 'what the fuck?!' Especially when they wreck shop with it against a bunch of guys with laser guns.


Also.. I really like Jamelle's take on Clone Wars, even if it's not entirely the direction I'd go (only because it doesn't go far enough away from existing canon, honestly).

This is ultimately my biggest problem with Star Wars. I'm sick to death of the Skywalker saga. Not every Star Wars story needs to focus on the Skywalker family. Nearly every Star Wars product (term used pointedly) hits on the same family and the same 60-year timeframe. Expand your fucking horizons! That's what made Knights of the Old Republic so interesting. It wasn't just about the next Glup Shitto cameo.

Dragonlance has this problem. The main story can NEVER fucking progress unless it's about the Companions of the Lance or their direct offspring. And it's infuriating in that specific case because they're some of the least interesting characters from some of the worst-written novels in the entire series.
I think, in a perfect world where the entire history of SW is different, you don't get sick of Skywalker because Skywalker is one (slightly longer) saga and then it just moves on.

Now, to be fair, I think it's worth pointing out that if you're a big fan of European medieval and early modern history, you'd be quite disturbed to find out that it's mostly about like four different families and that's it. In the broadest sense, a huge swath of the Star Wars saga being about the Skywalkers is well within historical and mythological parameters. It's just.. kind of boring and, maybe worse, often poorly executed and poorly-planned.

I don't believe for a second that Rey, for instance, was always supposed to be related to Palpy. It's so ad-hoc that you can't take it seriously.


Also, HARD agree about there only needing to be one Death Star and that's always been something in my personal head-canon for the 'if I ever wrote Star Wars' thing.

My wife has been having a hard time with her illness lately - she can't stay up for long periods after I get home for work and real life news is making her feel so miserable that it's hard to enjoy things. So we're quite a few episodes behind on Andor, but I can't wait to get back into it. Much as I did not like the early part of Season 1, it's shaped up to be one of my favorite things with the Star Wars branding on it.

 

[Ru1977]

Despite the general positivity surrounding them, I have found that I NEVER like the animated Star Wars. I think part of it is that my brain is like 'Star Wars = Live Action' so I start with some detachment, combined with I NEVER like the art style they choose for the SW shows, combined with just not caring for the content of the shows (probably way less true of Rebels than something like Clone Wars).

You know what, same. I appreciate several plots from Clone Wars, and really liked Rebels on paper, but just have a really hard time with animation anymore. Even the short ones like the Tales Of shows I just can't. It's entirely my hangup.

My son is the opposite. I think the OT is legitimately his least favorite thing in all of Star Wars. He's told me outright that he finds it boring and even the lightsaber fights just aren't very good. He finds the PT and ST way more exciting, but I think that's the put. Those movies were definitely made for a younger, perhaps more video-gamey audience that moreso needs that constant stream of motion and action. And by PT, I kind of mean post-TPM. Attack really ramped up how much action is in every 30 minutes of movie.

Yeah, I don't think my son ever finished TPM. He has watched AOTC, and he actively liked ROTS. I actually was surprised he liked the OT so heavily. He never got into Rogue One, and actually he's pretty anti-Disney Star Wars aside from the first two seasons of Mandalorian.

I think that's true generally, but for something like Star Wars, I'd say the easiest greenlight is pitching 'more Star Wars' rather than 'different Star Wars.' They want that built-in base that will watch it, or hate-watch it, specifically because of an attachment to the originals. If you say 'we're redoing the OT' - I think the writing would be on the wall that it would either be REALLY successful, or no one would want to see it. That's a big risk for companies that are famously risk-averse.

All fair, yeah.

You know what... next time I have an hour or two to spare, I might start a thread that's just my broad strokes take on completely rebuilding Star Wars and see if anyone wants to post their own version, changes, etc. Just a whole thread about 'here's what I'd do.' Just for fun.

Hell yeah! I look forward to it.

I don't believe for a second that Rey, for instance, was always supposed to be related to Palpy. It's so ad-hoc that you can't take it seriously.

The fun thing is they probably never made a decision until they absolutely HAD to. Why plan ahead?

My wife has been having a hard time with her illness lately - she can't stay up for long periods after I get home for work and real life news is making her feel so miserable that it's hard to enjoy things. So we're quite a few episodes behind on Andor, but I can't wait to get back into it. Much as I did not like the early part of Season 1, it's shaped up to be one of my favorite things with the Star Wars branding on it.

First off, I am really sorry about her illness, but I am also glad you're actually enjoying Andor so much.

 

[Ru1977]

I'm about to watch the last one of last night's three episodes, but on episode 8:

Spoiler

This whole Ghorman plot is really haunting me, especially since it was just yesterday where I was talking to a coworker about the tariffs etc screwing our economy so hard that looting and such will be likely, leading to martial law and ongoing military presence etc. I realize if you look hard, you'll see what you're going through in art but man... again, really haunting even without mentioning the details of the massacre itself.

 

[Chooch555]

Just watched 7-9. I'm ready to rebel.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

This. And to your other point about your D&D campaign as well, actually. I think Star Wars is at its best when it's a space western that includes occasional wandering Ronin, or disaffected Civil War soldiers still carrying that old saber around. I'm super biased here, but I LIKE swords in my sci-fi. Some settings just do 'lots of swords' better, and I think Star Wars does 'fewer swords' better.

In the samurai films that inspired Lucas, the wandering Ronin is often the only good guy with a sword. He isn't joined by a legion of friendly samurai fighting in a giant arena.

If I were running a tabletop sci-fi game (which I have done, but it was under GURPS), I would totally allow a laser sword or a fusion sword or a monomolecular-edged sword or whatever. I think it's cool for that stuff to exist. But it should feel exotic. When someone pulls one of those out, everyone else in the room should be like 'what the fuck?!' Especially when they wreck shop with it against a bunch of guys with laser guns.

Absolutely.

I love swords. I think they're so fucking cool. Lightsabers were the impetus for my love of swords. IMO, they're the thing that makes Star Wars Star Wars. But there are entirely too many of them. As @PanchaMaestro said, when everyone's a Jedi, no one is.

I don't believe for a second that Rey, for instance, was always supposed to be related to Palpy. It's so ad-hoc that you can't take it seriously.

The Rise of Skywalker is probably my least favorite movie. I could write a dissertation about the sequel trilogy.
You've captured the spirit of the problem. Everything about the trilogy was ad hoc. It was filmmaking by focus group.

The Force Awakens was a soft remake of A New Hope. (Are we sure JJ Abrams has a creative bone in his body?) It does have some redeeming qualities, though. The idea that a stormtrooper could become a Jedi is still fascinating. A prominent woman Jedi was long overdue, and I think Daisy Ridley did a lot with a little. I came in with huge expectations and left humbled by corporate storytelling.

They completely lost me with The Last Jedi, even though I admired a lot about it. The idea of burning canon to build something fresh was super appealing. The idea that anyone could wield the force—a step away from the Skywalker family being a Christ-like dynasty—gets two thumbs up from me. The cinematography is amazing. The actual movie left a lot to be desired. I almost laughed out loud at dead Leia Supermaning her way through space. Canto Bight rivals anything in the prequels for wasted screentime. The Holdo maneuver, while visually striking and admittedly very cool, is basically canon-breaking. While making Snoke a punchline and then killing him prevented them from remaking Return of the Jedi in Episode IX, it also left them with nowhere to go.

Then we have the Rise of Skywalker. It's got a video game quest to find a MacGuffin. It's got a Chewbacca death fakeout that insults its audience's intelligence and accomplishes... what? All it does is prove that Disney is too chickenshit to kill the family dog to set the stakes. Finally, the Palpatine revival. Something so eye-roll inducing that it became an enduring meme. Why is Poe in these movies again? Unfortunately, I unabashedly love Babu Frik. What a shame he came from this poisoned chalice.

 

[docsilence]

The sequel trilogy is sort of a gleaming example of why Star Wars being unable to reboot itself is a problem. The mistakes are incalculable, but it's cannon, so... here we are. I thought TFA was fun. Not great, but it had a lot to like about it--three great leads, some real pulpy energy and excitement. I saw TLJ twice in the theater and the first time I was like "this was a really daring project" and the second time I was like "this film made me profoundly miserable and I never want to talk about it again." To the point to this day I have every variation of The Last Jedi muted on all my social media accounts. I never want to think about it again (though you all are rational and smart and respectful so I can talk about it here without feeling like I'm going to get mired in a week of shit-slinging). It's probably singularly the one film I both admire for it's artistic ambitions but also hate to the depths of my heart.

And Rise of Skywalker is just top to bottom a garbage movie, proving nobody had a plan and nobody knew what they wanted from the trilogy. In the way the animated shows make the prequels better, TRoS makes everything it's connected to worse.

Man I wish they jumped 100 years into the future with the sequels. Put everyone in the ground and start on a fresh horizon. Or jump a thousand years into the past and tell Revan's story. Or hell, you've had the best writers in the world daydreaming about Episodes 7-9 their entire lives. Find the best fuckin' story ever among the detritus of those dreams and film that. The sequels are Alderaan. There had been a million voices screaming that went silent when they told that story.

Alternately, I avoided the animated stuff for YEARS, to the point I had to binge Clone Wars and Rebels on DVD! And I regret waiting as long as I did. I get it, the art is off-putting, and it's too many episodes, and there's certainly a TON of filler in there. But the payoff in the final episode with Vader in the Snow for Clone Wars, or Kanan backlit by flames staring into the camera with blind eyes, or that final scene in the for the Bad Batch... Those shows broke my heart every time. They brought old dreams to life in ways nothing else has. Pre-Andor those were my favorite Star Wars other than the OT (which I can see the flaws in, but they changed everything and I wouldn't ever change them.)

 

[Ru1977]

The Force Awakens was a soft remake of A New Hope.

Right, which I was fine with at the time. Again, it was up to the sequels to elevate the same beginning.

Are we sure JJ Abrams has a creative bone in his body?

No. I definitely haven't seen everything he's done, but the Lost pilot was my big exposure to him I guess, besides Trek, but like the Lost pilot, he came into star wars setting up a bunch of 'neat' setups he doesn't have to worry about paying off! But of course fate would finally make him pay the fiddler, and all he had in his pockets was some loose change, a button, and the POTF2 flashback Emperor figure.

It does have some redeeming qualities, though. The idea that a stormtrooper could become a Jedi is still fascinating. A prominent woman Jedi was long overdue, and I think Daisy Ridley did a lot with a little.

Agreed. It's not horrible, but really needed something strong to follow it.

They completely lost me with The Last Jedi, even though I admired a lot about it. The idea of burning canon to build something fresh was super appealing.

Agreed again, but would have been a cool idea for the trilogy. For me, the trilogy as a whole should have been nostalgia bait, canon burning, or something entirely new, but just make it consistent.

The idea that anyone could wield the force—a step away from the Skywalker family being a Christ-like dynasty—gets two thumbs up from me.

And even goes back to what Lucas said before the mid 80s about anyone Force, it's like karate.

Why is Poe in these movies again?

No one wonders more than Oscar Isaac.

 

[Ru1977]

The mistakes are incalculable, but it's cannon, so... here we are.

Exactly.

I thought TFA was fun. Not great, but it had a lot to like about it--three great leads, some real pulpy energy and excitement

Yeah, on it's fun and not terrible on its own.

I saw TLJ twice in the theater and the first time I was like "this was a really daring project" and the second time I was like "this film made me profoundly miserable and I never want to talk about it again."

Well put.
The first time I saw it, I was really taken aback because star wars had never had flashbacks or slow motion before. It's probably a weird thing to be jarred out of a movie by, but that is what happened.

Over time I kinda came around and accepted what they'd done but I actually still haven't seen it a second time! The main reason is TROS.

It's probably singularly the one film I both admire for it's artistic ambitions but also hate to the depths of my heart.

Yup. It's real easy to be of two kinds about that. But at least we have Knives Out.

And Rise of Skywalker is just top to bottom a garbage movie, proving nobody had a plan and nobody knew what they wanted from the trilogy. In the way the animated shows make the prequels better, TRoS makes everything it's connected to worse.

Again, well put.

Man I wish they jumped 100 years into the future with the sequels. Put everyone in the ground and start on a fresh horizon. Or jump a thousand years into the past and tell Revan's story

Basically, they had some great options and went with none of the above.

I get it, the art is off-putting, and it's too many episodes, and there's certainly a TON of filler in there.

Not just that. I was as into Rebels as I possibly could be but just couldn't keep going. I just caught up on Andor and found the Rebels episode that more or less follows that, and just couldn't finish it. Andor is all tension and character and that episode was just action action action..action is cool, it's great, but I guess I'm in a tension and character head.

Vader in the Snow for Clone Wars

Ah ha! I skipped the last few episodes!

Kanan backlit by flames staring into the camera with blind eyes

Oh damn, is that what happens?! Is it because of the time travel plane or whatever? Because I'm still not sure I'm into that.

 

[Ru1977]

The Holdo maneuver, while visually striking and admittedly very cool, is basically canon-breaking

Damnit, I meant to ask about this. Genuinely ignorant about the issue.

I'll never forget how utterly silent it was in the theater for that moment. It felt like everyone was in utter shock.

I also always "love" the reactions like "how dare she not tell Poe, a disobedient , hotshot subordinate, all about her secret plan! I hate women!" I'm pretty sure that's how it went heh heh.

 

[docsilence]

Y'know, they absolutely did Finn dirty with the writing, but they did POE dirty too. Two astoundingly wonderful actors with amazing chemistry both with each other and with Daisy and... phfffffftt.

Ru, the Kanan payoff is something I won't post about cos it's kind of the culmination of the heart of the entire journey of the show but... if you can ever bear to sit through it, I find it to be one of the most profoundly moving moments in all of this 48-year-old franchise's history. And the last episode of the Clone Wars, that short series that was released just a few years back, does a better job showing the conflicted brokenness of Anakin's / Vader's heart than any of the live action stuff ever did. Maybe I'm a softy but my heart shattered like a dropped glass. I will say the most off-putting thing about the animated shows are they are FRANTIC, and if you don't like frantic I can see how they're unwatchable. They cram a crapton of stuff into every 20 minute episode like they know they're on a ticking clock to get it done. One of the things I love about Andor is how it elegantly takes its time at every turn and lets the audience savor the tension.

I was so bummed out by so much of the sequels that the Holdo Maneuver didn't even show up as a blip on my radar of stuff I had problems with. I think my reaction was "oh. Huh. Okay." Because I was still baffled by Leia Mary Poppinsing her way through space.

 

[Fletch]

I honestly adore the cast and characters of the sequel trilogy. I could write an absolute paper on how great the character types were at initial conception. It was a discussion at the time with my oldest son about how Force Awakens had such great characters but such a boring story while the following year's Rogue One had such a great story but boring characters (not you, K2-S0. You were awesome).

I think I'm kinder than others in how they handled the original trilogy cast and think everybody was used well, including Han's death and Luke's apparent failure as a teacher. It's a shame about Carrie Fisher's death as a whole, but specifically to here I believe it kept her character from getting a satisfying conclusion.

And they almost had it. Last of the Jedi wasn't start-to-end good, but I really liked how it exposed the complacency and complicitness of the galaxy at large and brushed right up against the idea of doing away with the light/dark interpretation of the force. Rey was a nobody and even that little sweeper boy could use the force. It never quite got the homerun it was looking for, but it kept swinging for the fences. I think I prefer that to the base run bunt of the Force Awakens.

I could write a second paper about how trash Rise of Skywalker was, but I haven't met anybody yet who doesn't think that so I'll just take a minute to wince inwardly about what could have been. It's not just a bad movie, it's actively un-good. Like, every time you think there's something good, they will take time out of their day to ruin it. I remember thinking "Holy carp! What a bold move to have Rey lose control of the Force and kill Chewbacca!!" The movie was just full of rug-pulls like that.

Again, while I've certainly done my own fanfic re-writes of the sequel trilogy, I would never want the actual movies to be wiped out and replaced with a do-over. I'm just going to hope that Filoni's Mando-era shows and movies will be able to salvage them by giving us a satisfying story of the rise of the First Order and all the hints they've been dropping about the Emperor's cloning experiments. Ten years from now we should have a fuller and more comfortable story.

Buuut, when I get my time machine working and use all that recovered pirate gold to buy Star Wars from George Lucas before Disney does, I do have a very different sequel trilogy planned. It keeps all the same characters because, again, they're great, but it draws from the real world struggles we've had stabilizing post-war nations and posits a conflict-adverse Galactic Republic struggling to reunite a balkanized galaxy while the First Order rises to power by secretly fomenting civil wars and conflicts so they can come in as the stabilizing peacekeepers and absorb them into their hegemony.

 

[joshsquash729]

I don't know if ya'll have read Colin Trevorrow's unproduced script for episode 9, but you should if you haven't. It's not perfect- there's still plenty to nitpick- but at least in my opinion, it was miles better than Rise of Skywalker. He kept Kylo as the villain, Luke actually returned as a Force Ghost to torment him as promised, the Knights of Ren actually did something, Rose didn't get entirely shafted, Finn led a freakin' Stormtrooper rebellion on Coruscant, Hux had a much cooler/more fitting send-off, Rey had a cool double-bladed saber like her staff and she was kept as a nobody, and Leia got a big focus. I get that Leia was the main reason why it would've been difficult to do, but you can't tell me they couldn't have pulled a Rogue One with Tarkin and Young Leia and just deepfaked her over a sound-alike actress. Probably would still have been that uncanny valley, but I think it would've felt a little more natural than the Frankenstein'd mess we got, where they had to write scenes around her pre-existing unused dialogue (and the end product still felt a little uncanny, so it wouldn't have made that much difference). Ah, what could have been.

 

[Fletch]

@joshsquash729, what was Leia's big focus?

All things being equal, I would rather they assign that storyline to a different character than do a post-mortem deepfake. It's one thing to cheat around an actor's death in a movie that's already in production, like Brandon Lee, or do a cameo with the actor's blessing like Leia at the end of Rogue One, but I found the CG Tarkin in Rogue One really tasteless (no matter what his estate might have agreed to.)

 

[TheSameIdiot]

Damnit, I meant to ask about this. Genuinely ignorant about the issue.

The long and short of it is why couldn't it have worked against the Death Star?

I think I'm kinder than others in how they handled the original trilogy cast and think everybody was used well, including Han's death and Luke's apparent failure as a teacher. It's a shame about Carrie Fisher's death as a whole, but specifically to here I believe it kept her character from getting a satisfying conclusion.

This is the problem with relying on 70-somethings instead of developing new talent. It mirrors America's current gerontocracy.

The main cast was way too big. How do you give Finn, Rey, Poe, Kylo, and BB-8 enough screentime while catering to Han, Luke, Leia, Chewie, R2, and C-3PO? We saw the answer: you don't.

Rey was a nobody and even that little sweeper boy could use the force.

Gah, I forgot that Rey Palpatine was a Rise of Skywalker retcon. You made me hate that movie all over again.

It never quite got the homerun it was looking for, but it kept swinging for the fences. I think I prefer that to the base run bunt of the Force Awakens.

100%. A trilogy of The Last Jedis would've been a million times better than three movies pulling in opposite directions—especially when two were creatively bankrupt. This is why films need a singular vision to succeed.

I get that Leia was the main reason why it would've been difficult to do, but you can't tell me they couldn't have pulled a Rogue One with Tarkin and Young Leia and just deepfaked her over a sound-alike actress.

This is an aside, but I'm done with this. I never want to see another dead actor CGIed on screen, with or without their permission. It's dystopian.