Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

[altcunningham]

Nope, still don't agree with that. And I'll tell ya why: Audiences are fickle. They shift like the weather.

I would counter that as a creative and someone who has to deal with clients and audiences, I don't care what they want. They don't know what they want. If you are slick enough you can trick them into thinking they wanted what you gave them.

Your Batman example holds true for every single time they recast him in live Action and even cartoons. And an as soon as that product hits, it turns out it was actually great.

But if you specifically try and cater to the audiences and anticipate things, I think that sets things up for failure every time.

 

[altcunningham]

Like since we're talking about Han Solo. I think that actor was great. One of the high points. I think you can recast those characters.

But I don't think that was a story that needed to be told, or at least the way they chose to assemble that story. And clearly even Disney doesn't know what to do with it because they've just shuffled everything off to the comic.

But I will support your point with one thing. Parasocial relationships. I think a lot of people don't actually like Captain America. They like Chris Evans. And so on. I don't know if that's always been there, but certainly in the age of social media, loyalties run way too strong about people who just pretend to be other people.

I do think that passing the mantle was the best way to do it, and I think Yelena is a great example. The problem is, us agent and ironheart were passed off not on the Silver screen, which is really the only screen that counts for this thing. But credit to them for trying to make TV happen.

 

[fac]

Then Batman came out followed of course by Batman Returns. Sanity (such as it is in the world of fandom) returned. And then ... it was announced that Michael Keaton would NOT be returning for Batman Forever. And I shit you not, those very same "he has no chin" people were now jumping up and down and screaming at the top of their lungs "NOOOOOO!!! How DARE you?? Keaton IS Batman! No one can replace him! You fools! You've ruined everything! Boycott, Boycott, Boycott!"

Yeah, I remember all of that as well. People were very skeptical of the Burton/Keaton Batman when it was announced, then upset when they left. But quality product tends to win people over. It is a shame that The Flash film didn't do better, I honestly thought they did a decent job with the "We've seen some of these other worlds/timelines Bats and Supes and WW" - just hit it enough for fans but not make a big deal out of it - and the idea that Keaton Bats would be around for a bit was going to be fun I thought.

I will say that when the recast to Kilmer and Clooney occurred, those films were also not as well received (too campy Burton kept the camp to a minimal level while being quirky - hyped as much for the all-star actors as the bad guys...) but the Kilmer one did make money. So hard to know if better films would have glossed over the recasting more.

Yes, other actors can play Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Thor Odinson and Bruce Banner. Other actors can even play Indiana Jones and Captain Jack Sparrow, blasphemous as that may seem to some. Yes, there'll be jumping up and down and screaming and wailing and whining. There may even be picketing. But do you think any of that will matter if Disney thinks there might be money to be made?

I agree, we will see IM and Cap again - I even look forward to that - I just think the smart move for them would be to hold off and disconnect from the current MCU, not be tempted by "let's find Earth 799 Tony Stark and bring him in" - unless they want to make the story about how we get a hero Tony Stark who is not accepted here, has to start over, can't find his place - that could be an interesting story. (I am still not going to be shocked if Doom is a Stark from elsewhere).

I will say that Disney more than most studios plays the long game with their IP. Cinderella (the Disney version) is 75 years old and they are still milking that and the Princesses. They like their continuity and love evergreen properties and I think may focus less on "let's put out a sequel/reboot" as once they get a character established they can milk it other ways - theme parks, cruise, merchandise, kids TV - better than anyone else. So I'd be very curious to know what discussions they have over the Marvel stuff.

I also believe integrating the Fox films via the multiverse serves multiple purposes - nostalgia and, fan service - but also retroactively making the older X-Men, FF and Spidey films a part of the MCU, which doesn't stick them in a box or irrelevance.

This discussion did get me thinking about Doomsday - at the moment only Dr Strange, Spidey and America Chavez from the core MCU have really seen other universes - Strange has met a Reed Richards and Prof X, we'll see how he reacts to seeing them again, given they tried to kill him. I expect him to be the defacto lead...given Spidey is an unknown to the world.

 

[fac]

They don't know what they want.

True, I suspect that at least 50% of the people that ended up seeing MCU films at their peak would have 10 years earlier scoffed at ever seeing a comic film about the Avengers or Thor or Ant-Man. But it became a thing, the films were well done, people liked the actors - and then you have 50 million folks going to see them or watch them on TV....

 

[fac]

I think there's something to be said for recasting characters that existed in other forms for being easier than recasting characters that were originated by an actor. Its easier to see someone else as Reed Richards than it is Han Solo.

Agreed - when Ford is on screen as Solo, he is Solo. When Ehrenreich is on screen as Solo, he is "playing" Solo. That's not a knock it is what it is in my head as I watch it. Not sure why exactly.

 

[Ru1977]

Like since we're talking about Han Solo. I think that actor was great. One of the high points. I think you can recast those characters.

Yeah, I agree. You absolutely can but like you said, it didn't need to be done. I am ALL for rebooting star wars. Make Luke and Leia not siblings or not kiss! But don't do it just so the audience sees people they know. Yeah yeah I know studios wanna make money, but they also have creatives with something to say, so yeah wait for that not just because you can and wanna make money.

But I will support your point with one thing. Parasocial relationships. I think a lot of people don't actually like Captain America. They like Chris Evans

For me, this is exactly the case. As much as I enjoyed the Office, had they gone with Krasinski, I don't know I would have enjoyed the character nearly as much. Evans just nailed it. Could someone else do that? Yeah, I'm sure. Will I be as excited? Definitely not. I didn't like the Kilmer Batman AT ALL. Because I'm such a devoted Keaton fan? Nope. I just found the movie to be bad and not what I wanted from a Batman movie. Leaned really hard into a style I don't wanna watch. Does that mean they can't recast? Nah, but when they do recast, with the main character anyway, they tend to not just change the performer but really drive as much as they can to distinguish it from the last version. And even as a creative person, I do grasp why. But when I really enjoy a portrayal, why am I gonna show up for a new version that is so different? At the same time, I think it's wrong to ask an actor to come in and do an impression of the last guy.

It's a Catch 22, and has to be done just right. So I totally get why they put it off. But I do agree they're gonna do it. Secret Wars is a perfect way to do it.

 

[AceofKnaves]

It’s just hard for me to get at all precious about “only this guy can play this character”.
I’ve seen like a dozen guys play Hamlet. Doesn’t diminish the play or the character in any way: it makes it all *better*. You know you have arrived as a fictional character when you are played over time by many actors.
It’s also the only way these characters and stories last.

If you are slick enough you can trick them into thinking they wanted what you gave them.

Oof, I agree audiences often don’t have a handle on “what they want” (mostly because they are a bunch of individuals, not an aggregate mass), but the idea of “slick trickery” makes me sad. I wish art was more direct and sincere than that; I’m exhausted by the cynicism.

 

[Ru1977]

Another thing... Are we wanting endless sequels just to mirror the comics or because we want great stories? Like, I enjoyed the Bale movies. Would I take another? No. Dkr isn't my favorite but it's a solid resolution, and in this day and age I cherish such a thing.

If they recast these characters, are we gonna get Winter Soldier or Iron Man 3? Everyone loves Winter Soldier, but to be clear I don't hate Iron Man 3, just don't see it as at all necessary. I didn't mind the mechanic aspect, didn't have a problem with Killian or Trevor, and never minded the quips. It had some interesting character beats, but what if they'd folded that into Age of Ultron? I dunno... Iron Man 3 just felt unnecessary as a whole, forgetting about the people who exploded because Mandarin. It would have been a cool episode of the Iron Man tv show, but that isn't what is getting me to go to the theater. I want something incredible, not just "oh, another one". And I don't mean just more explosions or neat visuals, I need character stuff. And even when Marvel was firing on all cylinders, Winter Soldier was a standout... not the norm. So if they're going to recast Iron Man just to give us more Iron Man 3 level, then... yeah, I don't see the audience showing up.

 

[AceofKnaves]

And even when Marvel was firing on all cylinders, Winter Soldier was a standout... not the norm.

Bingo.
Winter Soldier both blew me away as a film and also set a bar that, at least for me, was never even remotely reached again in the Infinity Saga, and that was a major reason for my ongoing disappointment with the full series.

 

[Ru1977]

Wait... you're agreeing with me? ...I don't know what to do now. Heh heh.

 

[SDcomics]

I would counter that as a creative and someone who has to deal with clients and audiences, I don't care what they want. They don't know what they want. If you are slick enough you can trick them into thinking they wanted what you gave them.

I once asked John Byrne "Hey, now that you've done Batman and Captain America, how about a sequel? Justice Society and the Invaders." He just looked at me and shook his head no. I asked him why not, and he said "Never, ever give the fans what they think they want."

Maybe he's got a point there. I don't know. I wish I would have pressed him on that but his mind seemed to be made up.

"C'est la vie" as my French Grandfather used to say.