Last Series Watched

[JakeEkiss]

I liked the first two episodes but it was when they changed locations in E3 that gave me the dizzying sense of dread. I think you're right in that we're getting to the meat of what Hawley wants to do after they get to that point.

Olyphant has a line delivery in E3 that is so... clinically menacing that I found his casting choice fascinating. He's doing some of his most interesting work in a while here after playing phenomenal badasses for a good chunk of his career. There's a shift in his character mid-episode that's so subtle and so sharp it made me REALLY interested to see what he does with the next stages of his career.

Yeah. The longer I think on it the more certain I am that eps 1 and 2 are basically a bunch of studio mandates strung together. Or that a lot was added/corrected in post. And there is just no reasonable explanation of that continuity error otherwise. Morrow is in the exposition scene and even has dialog. He's paying attention. There's no reason for him to ask these questions in ep 3, or suddenly research Kavalier like he's a new entity. If you assume that exposition was a reshoot/add-in, and start the episode where I think it probably initially did, in the MOTHER chamber, then the bit in ep 3 makes MUCH more sense.

Additionally, starting in the MOTHER chamber with Morrow ignoring his crewmate as she's torn to bits is a MUCH stronger, much pulpier opener to this sort of show than just repeating the first few shots of Alien.

I think if I watched all three eps again I could pick out the bits that are added in later, because now that I'm pretty sure this is studio notes it's clearer to me why things don't fit together neatly.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

Does it get less boring?

 

[docsilence]

Yeah. The longer I think on it the more certain I am that eps 1 and 2 are basically a bunch of studio mandates strung together. Or that a lot was added/corrected in post. And there is just no reasonable explanation of that continuity error otherwise. Morrow is in the exposition scene and even has dialog. He's paying attention. There's no reason for him to ask these questions in ep 3, or suddenly research Kavalier like he's a new entity. If you assume that exposition was a reshoot/add-in, and start the episode where I think it probably initially did, in the MOTHER chamber, then the bit in ep 3 makes MUCH more sense.

Additionally, starting in the MOTHER chamber with Morrow ignoring his crewmate as she's torn to bits is a MUCH stronger, much pulpier opener to this sort of show than just repeating the first few shots of Alien.

I think if I watched all three eps again I could pick out the bits that are added in later, because now that I'm pretty sure this is studio notes it's clearer to me why things don't fit together neatly.

I saw an interview with Hawley where he talks about the "coldest line in the series," when Ripley says she doesn't know which species is worse, you don't see them fucking each other over for a percentage, and I think he's painted a bright red (or acid green?) target on the part of this he REALLY wants to talk about.

I did think in the first few minutes that it was just ANOTHER rehash of all the classic shots, but I think as you say they were complying with a "we need X, we need Y, we need Z or it's not ALIEN" and once it gets past the length of a standard Alien feature film it starts opening up some veins.

 

[JakeEkiss]

Does it get less boring?

For me, yes. We seem to potentially be done playing the hits and are now getting to actually new stuff.

Will it stay more interesting? I don't know. Depends how much more studio stuff I detect. But the difference in feel for me once we get off that fucking ship is STARK.

I did think in the first few minutes that it was just ANOTHER rehash of all the classic shots, but I think as you say they were complying with a "we need X, we need Y, we need Z or it's not ALIEN" and once it gets past the length of a standard Alien feature film it starts opening up some veins.

Like I said, imagine you just cut that stuff from the opener and start with the scene that follows on the Maginot after all the bad shit has started happening. Suddenly that episode is now opening on a hot start that is incredibly gruesome and cruel, and indeed harkens back to that line. And you lose no essential exposition, in fact you'd close the plot hole from ep 3.

I even wonder if the early cut started with the Neverland stuff, and there was no alien for like 20 mins. That would definiteltly spook an exec.

I'm starting to think some of the stuff I wanted for the first two eps might've actually been there in an earlier cut.

 

[docsilence]

For me, yes. We seem to potentially be done playing the hits and are now getting to actually new stuff.

Will it stay more interesting? I don't know. Depends how much more studio stuff I detect. But the difference in feel for me once we get off that fucking ship is STARK.


Like I said, imagine you just cut that stuff from the opener and start with the scene that follows on the Maginot after all the bad shit has started happening. Suddenly that episode is now opening on a hot start that is incredibly gruesome and cruel, and indeed harkens back to that line. And you lose no essential exposition, in fact you'd close the plot hole from ep 3.

I even wonder if the early cut started with the Neverland stuff, and there was no alien for like 20 mins. That would definiteltly spook an exec.

I'm starting to think some of the stuff I wanted for the first two eps might've actually been there in an earlier cut.

Y'know... you may be right. I could see Hawley wanting to start with the creepy, moody Neverland stuff and an exec losing his mind because there's no xeno in the first hour of the show. "Nobody stepped in drool, this isn't Alien!"

 

[JakeEkiss]

Y'know... you may be right. I could see Hawley wanting to start with the creepy, moody Neverland stuff and an exec losing his mind because there's no xeno in the first hour of the show. "Nobody stepped in drool, this isn't Alien!"

Yeah. I really really want to know about production now.

 

[docsilence]

I"m always always years behind on most shows, but I just finished Black Sails and it's going to haunt me for a long time. I started watching it thinking it was Game of Thrones but with pirates, then I thought it was Sons of Anarchy with Pirates, and then I thought it was Deadwood but with pirates and I liked that most of all, a story about people trying to build something lasting and find their own dignity even at the cost of their lives. But in the end it was the through line that this is a story about stories, that the truth of a story matters less than the way that story can move minds and mountains and ships and dreams, that's what burrowed into my heart. Every single character arc is thinking not just about the moment but how that moment will be retold and remembered. Maybe it's cos I make my living telling stories, but the way it never calls out that theme but makes sure it is in every inch of fabric that went into the series is masterfully done.

It's a story about unreliable narrators who know the value of tall tales. Just breathtaking stuff.

 

[TFitz]

JakeEkiss -​

Knowing what we now know about the flight and how the crash was orchestrated, does that change your view on Kavalier sending in his Synthetics?

I'm still loving this series. I want an entire movie just for the Oceluss's. We send soldiers to their planet to capture more and they all become an army of the Oceluss's, headed to earth with more of their brood. Or anything along those lines. These are one of the most disturbing and horrifying creatures ever made and I'd love to see more of them.

 

[docsilence]

The eyeball thing has become my favorite character in the whole series.

Acknowledging E5 was sort of an homage of every human f*ckup in trying to manage xenobiology, it was such efficient storytelling and really humanized everyone involved. Also, thank gawwwd for practical effects. I know not everything can be shot practical, but if the opportunity is there, it's just so cool.

 

[JakeEkiss]

Knowing what we now know about the flight and how the crash was orchestrated, does that change your view on Kavalier sending in his Synthetics?

Now I have different questions. Ok, so he knows it's coming in crash landing to his empire, in fact he set it up. Why isn't he tracking it on the way in with a team set up waiting for it? It's a big ship and it's not on a stealth decent. Literally an arrow they say. So he's willing to send his synths (still ridiculous when you've got literal armies that cost less, but whatever), fine, why only after he's already got marines going in blind? Hey, why does he send his synths in blind if he already knows in rough outline what's on the ship? Even a simple "oh, btw, some alien lifeforms are on there I want" seems enough, but it's not even clear he tells Kirsh that. Maybe he does offscreen? Kirsh certainly doesn't tell the Lost Boys even though he seems to care for them.

All the info we get in ep 1 implies Kavalier is ignorant of the cargo except that it's a Yutani ship. And if he's just playing ignorant, he's doing so in ways that make it less likely he's getting that cargo unharmed because he's keeping his own people in the dark. He's got the same resources Yutani does, he didn't send his folks with nets and stun guns at least? He knows they're supposed to be getting some alien monsters even if he doesn't know what. And it still doesn't explain other things like Wendy making herself a sword for... no real reason as far as she's concerned.

Also we see Morrow again getting info on who Kavalier and Prodigy are prior to the crash, so why does he ask Yutani who Prodigy is in ep 3? This one just annoys the piss out of me. Same with him being surprised she's not the Yutani he recalls. He KNOWS he's been in space for decades. He's been getting routine info updates from the whole journey as we see.

And the ship crew is weird again to me. These folks managed to capture all these critters. They lost people doing it we are told in ep 1. But they seem really slow to think and unprepared for that to be true. Did all the capture team folks die? Are they the ones still asleep? You'd think losing friends would make you hypervigilant.

Chibuzo seems responsible for studying the critters but is also the one directly responsible for not one, but two of them breaking containment in a single scene. In the next scene she literally asks "why do we have guns?" and I rewound just to make sure I heard it right. Why do you have guns???? On the ship filled with "monsters" you're studying??? There is a saboteur on board, and he seems pretty frazzled to start, so if he was responsible for all the badness it would make some sense... but he isn't. 4 people are killed just due to Chibuzo's negligence. No sabotage needed. It's WILD.

Every time we're near that ship the script is doing stuff to emulate the feel of the original Alien, but the original Alien is smarter. In the original Alien every misstep the crew makes is preceded by Ash sabotaging them. Ash tells them if they ignore the beacon they lose their paychecks. Ash breaks quarantine protocol (defying Ripley's direct order) to let them back in when Kane is impregnated. Ash fails to inform them of the impregnation once the facehugger falls off. Ash rigs up their shitty motion detectors. In fact, and I think this is a mistake all other Alien movies make, Ash tells them to use flamethrowers to drive the alien into the airlock because most animals retreat from fire... and relying on that is what gets Dallas killed. That's supposed to be bullshit too.

And when you go back through that movie and watch him, you can see him in every scene working out how to screw them in the background. It's a brilliant reveal because the crew of the Nostromo make decent decisions based on what they think they know. What they don't know is that one of their crew is not only a turncoat, but has no self-preservation. They can't fathom Ash would betray them because it would put him in danger too. And you as the audience can't either until the reveal. The original Alien crew isn't especially skittish (aside from Lambert). They're making the right decisions for what they think is going on, they just don't know what's really going on, and so every choice ends in tragedy. And that's why their descent into terror works so well.

end rant

I do love the eyeball alien. At some point we'll get to talk to it and find out all the stuff it knows and I'm looking forward to that. I want to see where we're going at Neverland. I think we're in for Alien Queen Wendy, and I'm totally down for that. Nibs being "pregnant" feels like it could go someplace very dark and very fucked up. Looking forward to that. The mold sprayer guy, what's his deal? Set dressing? Something more? I'm here for it. Yutani has goofy samurai guards with ABSURD helmets. Amazing, no notes.

Every time we're on that damn ship the setup gets worse for me. Every time we're off it I like the show more.

 

[fac]

@TheSameIdiot

You mentioned in the 1:12 wishlist thread looking for X-Files and Doctor Who episodes to pick and choose from.

For Doctor Who, this is a tall order. There are the seven Doctor portrayals in the original run (63-89), and now six in the modern run (05 to now, although the show is in limbo again). The original run shows its age and budget, but makes up for it in the writing and characters, and was serialized so stories were typically 4 to 6 episodes each 25 minutes long with cliffhangers - although it is slow moving compared to modern show. The modern run is more standalone episodes 45 minutes long, with an overarching "big bad/theme" for most seasons.

There is also a lot of lore for the show, with recurring antagonists (The Master, Daleks, Cybermen, etc...) and standalone plots. And even during the various Doctor runs, the companions change as well - some mesh better than others, and the vibe changes. And showrunners would change between some seasons of the same Doctor, although British TV is more a writers medium.

Many fans (including me) feel the original run hit its peak in the Fourth Doctor/Tom Baker years. I think you could just start in his first season and go from there. First season is sci-fi, then is a stretch where the show was kind of gothic sci-fi/horror/mashup that worked great.
Genesis of the Daleks (consider Ark in Space and Sontarran Experiment that precede this)
The Pyramids of Mars
The Brain of Morbius
The Seeds of Doom
The Deadly Assassin
The Robots of Death
The Talons of Weng Chiang
The Pirate Planet
City of Death

Other classic era:
The Third Doctor started out stuck on Earth and took on a bit of a James Bond tone at times along with more of an aliens threaten the Earth storyline, so some of the appeal of the show (going anywhere in space and time) is muted. "The Three Doctors" was the 10th Anniversary special and had the 1st (sort of), 2nd and 3rd Doctors teaming up. Pretty good story, gives you a taste of the personalities of the first three. Other Third Doctor: Terror of the Autons, The Demons, The Time Warrior.

After Baker, I think the show had its moments but was a bit more hit and miss. For the Fifth Doctor I think Kinda, Earthshock, and The Caves of Androzani are pretty good, with Androzani a classic.

If you want to do modern era, I'll suggest these as they are not as involved with the "big bad" storylines:
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
School Reunion
Girl in the Fireplace
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit
Human Nature/The Family of Blood
Blink
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
Midnight
The Eleventh Hour
Vincent and the Doctor
The Doctor's Wife

 

[JakeEkiss]

@TheSameIdiot

You mentioned in the 1:12 wishlist thread looking for X-Files and Doctor Who episodes to pick and choose from.

For Doctor Who, this is a tall order. There are the seven Doctor portrayals in the original run (63-89), and now six in the modern run (05 to now, although the show is in limbo again). The original run shows its age and budget, but makes up for it in the writing and characters, and was serialized so stories were typically 4 to 6 episodes each 25 minutes long with cliffhangers - although it is slow moving compared to modern show. The modern run is more standalone episodes 45 minutes long, with an overarching "big bad/theme" for most seasons.

There is also a lot of lore for the show, with recurring antagonists (The Master, Daleks, Cybermen, etc...) and standalone plots. And even during the various Doctor runs, the companions change as well - some mesh better than others, and the vibe changes. And showrunners would change between some seasons of the same Doctor, although British TV is more a writers medium.

Many fans (including me) feel the original run hit its peak in the Fourth Doctor/Tom Baker years. I think you could just start in his first season and go from there. First season is sci-fi, then is a stretch where the show was kind of gothic sci-fi/horror/mashup that worked great.
Genesis of the Daleks (consider Ark in Space and Sontarran Experiment that precede this)
The Pyramids of Mars
The Brain of Morbius
The Seeds of Doom
The Deadly Assassin
The Robots of Death
The Talons of Weng Chiang
The Pirate Planet
City of Death

Other classic era:
The Third Doctor started out stuck on Earth and took on a bit of a James Bond tone at times along with more of an aliens threaten the Earth storyline, so some of the appeal of the show (going anywhere in space and time) is muted. "The Three Doctors" was the 10th Anniversary special and had the 1st (sort of), 2nd and 3rd Doctors teaming up. Pretty good story, gives you a taste of the personalities of the first three. Other Third Doctor: Terror of the Autons, The Demons, The Time Warrior.

After Baker, I think the show had its moments but was a bit more hit and miss. For the Fifth Doctor I think Kinda, Earthshock, and The Caves of Androzani are pretty good, with Androzani a classic.

If you want to do modern era, I'll suggest these as they are not as involved with the "big bad" storylines:
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
School Reunion
Girl in the Fireplace
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit
Human Nature/The Family of Blood
Blink
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
Midnight
The Eleventh Hour
Vincent and the Doctor
The Doctor's Wife

As someone who has watched a lot of Dr. Who, this is a pretty comprehensive greatest hits list.

 

[fac]

To further beat this horse dead, for the modern era, I really love the Matt Smith years (I think Moffat is a great writer for Who), but I feel it works best to watch his years as full seasons as it is mythology heavy at times. However I think the Tennant years are more accessible to most - I found him to be a bit too much at times, while Smith like Baker seemed to me the most like how a really intelligent and moral alien dealing with humans and bad guys would be... I also appreciated, more than liked, the Capaldi years, if that makes sense.

I did accidentally leave off the 50th special "The Day of the Doctor" - which I think was very well done.

My top 5 standalone episodes, original -
The Pyramids of Mars
The Brain of Morbius
The Robots of Death
City of Death
The Caves of Androzani

Top 5 standalone episodes, modern -
Girl in the Fireplace
Blink
Midnight
Vincent and the Doctor
The Doctor's Wife

 

[akajomiha]

Two episodes into Alien Earth. Good stuff. Looks great. Slowly catching up on my Alien lore- son and I watched Aliens last week. Things are making sense to me- something I'm not used to.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

@TheSameIdiot

You mentioned in the 1:12 wishlist thread looking for X-Files and Doctor Who episodes to pick and choose from.

For Doctor Who, this is a tall order. There are the seven Doctor portrayals in the original run (63-89), and now six in the modern run (05 to now, although the show is in limbo again). The original run shows its age and budget, but makes up for it in the writing and characters, and was serialized so stories were typically 4 to 6 episodes each 25 minutes long with cliffhangers - although it is slow moving compared to modern show. The modern run is more standalone episodes 45 minutes long, with an overarching "big bad/theme" for most seasons.

There is also a lot of lore for the show, with recurring antagonists (The Master, Daleks, Cybermen, etc...) and standalone plots. And even during the various Doctor runs, the companions change as well - some mesh better than others, and the vibe changes. And showrunners would change between some seasons of the same Doctor, although British TV is more a writers medium.

Many fans (including me) feel the original run hit its peak in the Fourth Doctor/Tom Baker years. I think you could just start in his first season and go from there. First season is sci-fi, then is a stretch where the show was kind of gothic sci-fi/horror/mashup that worked great.
Genesis of the Daleks (consider Ark in Space and Sontarran Experiment that precede this)
The Pyramids of Mars
The Brain of Morbius
The Seeds of Doom
The Deadly Assassin
The Robots of Death
The Talons of Weng Chiang
The Pirate Planet
City of Death

Other classic era:
The Third Doctor started out stuck on Earth and took on a bit of a James Bond tone at times along with more of an aliens threaten the Earth storyline, so some of the appeal of the show (going anywhere in space and time) is muted. "The Three Doctors" was the 10th Anniversary special and had the 1st (sort of), 2nd and 3rd Doctors teaming up. Pretty good story, gives you a taste of the personalities of the first three. Other Third Doctor: Terror of the Autons, The Demons, The Time Warrior.

After Baker, I think the show had its moments but was a bit more hit and miss. For the Fifth Doctor I think Kinda, Earthshock, and The Caves of Androzani are pretty good, with Androzani a classic.

If you want to do modern era, I'll suggest these as they are not as involved with the "big bad" storylines:
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
School Reunion
Girl in the Fireplace
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit
Human Nature/The Family of Blood
Blink
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
Midnight
The Eleventh Hour
Vincent and the Doctor
The Doctor's Wife

Ha, I appreciate this. What I meant was that I watched the X-Files and Doctor Who in college. Looking back, I didn't need to watch the full series in either case. I would've been better off cherry-picking episodes. I watched a handful of highlights from the Baker years and then everything from 2005 to the early Jodie Comer run. I liked Comer as the Doctor, but I felt like the show had fallen off. It became a chore to watch.

The Tenant seasons were my favorites. I think Moffat is too far up his own ass. That said, some of his stand-alone episodes are the best Who episodes out there. The God Complex is a favorite of mine.