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His death was the worst part of the ending. Upended seven seasons of character growth for what, exactly?
Y'know I was thinking about it and a better way to go, if you wanted the flavor, but not the bullshit, is Jaime does go back to her at the end, not to actually join her, but to do the Kingslayer role a second time because he believes it's the only way to get to her. And have it play mostly the same but instead of them getting trapped, he intercepts her before she can escape. And right there at the end they both kill each other, and rather than it being him actually going back, it's what the people *assume* about him. So Jaime tries to redeem himself, but history is capricious, and the tales about him will always be sister-lover and kingslayer. And Brienne is maybe the only one who knows why he really went back, but also knows nobody will ever believe her.
 
For the record, I'm not spoiler tagging anything because the final season of GOT came out 6 fucking years ago. If you haven't seen it AND haven't had it spoiled for you yet, then I don't know what to tell ya'.

There's a big difference between being a George Bush-esque war criminal and being a loony tune. As Jake said, her over-the-top use of force was long established. Convincing me that she went off the deep end would've taken several more seasons.

I think we're saying the same thing. I'm saying they laid the foundation for the idea that fully half of all Targaryens are batshit insane. Then they set us up with three Targaryens in the series; Danny, her brother Viserys, and Jon. In the beginning we don't know about Jon, but the implications are clear that Danny is the sane one and Vis is the insane one. Then we're introduced to Jon, and are clearly meant to wonder if actually Danny is insane or if they are somehow both the 'good' Targaryen.
That is to say, we are primed to understand that any given Targaryen might be insane and all they had to do was give us more time with Danny GOING insane for it to make perfect sense. But they decided on 'she hears a bell and her brain breaks.'


That's the only way he'll finish them. If he's still working on 6 and hasn't started on 7, no chance.
That was my understanding. Both books were in a stage to be called 'pretty close' but that George didn't like something that happened in six, so that necessitates a re-write of both 6 AND 7 to fix it. And he has, if rumours are to be believed, been doing that for like 5 years.



I remain skeptical. I'll admit that Bran had a bigger role in the books (to the point that I wasn't totally surprised that he wound up "winning"), but making the boy who lives in the tree the president rather than the bastard with legitimate claims to the throne—a classic fantasy trope—is a tough sell.

Imagine it with way more time to breathe instead of a clumsy 20-minute exposition dump of why this totally actually makes sense y'all.
If the idea in the end is -actually- to establish a non-monarchal government, then actually the worst person to hand it to is 'the legitimate claim to the throne' guy. To actually change the government requires them to actively choose not to give it to the 'rightful' person.

Instead, you choose someone with no legitimate claim to the throne, who actively stayed out of the political schemes, actively fought the -real- threat the entire time, and has magic brain powers and crazy amounts of empathy. It makes tons of sense. Just not in the show where almost none of this is actually explored and the entire explanation for why this is supposed to make sense takes less time to say on screen than it took me to write this post. Also, D&D got way up their own ass with Tyrion's "it's about stories!" monologue that moved precisely no one.

I think that's the most gut-wrenching part of being a GOT fan; if they'd committed to it, cared about the project, and stuck with it for a few more seasons, almost every complaint - at least about the story itself - would likely evaporate. Even if we ended up largely in the same place, because those places would have made SENSE to get to instead of just a hand-wave "this is where we need to be so this can be over, so here we are.'



Y'know I was thinking about it and a better way to go, if you wanted the flavor, but not the bullshit, is Jaime does go back to her at the end, not to actually join her, but to do the Kingslayer role a second time because he believes it's the only way to get to her. And have it play mostly the same but instead of them getting trapped, he intercepts her before she can escape. And right there at the end they both kill each other, and rather than it being him actually going back, it's what the people *assume* about him. So Jaime tries to redeem himself, but history is capricious, and the tales about him will always be sister-lover and kingslayer. And Brienne is maybe the only one who knows why he really went back, but also knows nobody will ever believe her.
Absolutely terrific idea.

I'd even add to that if one wants to present Jaime as still being conflicted; have him be unable to actively kill Cersei, and with his last moments he holds her -- not just out of love, but forcing her to stay in place as the building collapses around them. He can't kill her, but he can't let her leave here alive either. Jaime could have escaped if he'd just killed her and left, but he just couldn't do it, even now. Even knowing that she needed to die.

And again, history will never know. He'll remain the kingslayer coward that ran back to his sister at the end of the world. Or maybe Brienne puts all the truth into the White Book for someone, someday, to find.
 
I am clearly not the Game of Thrones fan that some of you are, but the succession talk makes me think of a guy I used to hang with who got VERY serious during the show about Stannis getting the throne, because he was the rightful heir and LAW MUST BE RESPECTED. Like he was dead serious about this and got FURIOUS about it at every opportunity. Mind, he was not a *fan* of Stannis, he just felt it was morally necessary IN THE REAL WORLD for Stannis to win. This guy was pretty young, early-20s at the time, and he was the most legalistic guy I ever met. These “chats” woukd quickly turn to discussions of nationalism, and he would unapologetically, enthusiastically say that nationalism was GREAT. He was a also a big BIG nationalistic fan of a certain real-life nation that is currently doing a genocide, and likewise got REALLY mad at any suggestion that said nation should not get wildly preferential treatment: if I remember right, he would say “OK we shouldn’t arm foreign nations, but THAT nation should get arms ‘as a treat’”. He would NOT shut up about Stannis’ “rights”, like never. This was to the point where we wound up not talking anymore because this dude made it WEIRD. I wonder what he’s up to now.
 
If the idea in the end is -actually- to establish a non-monarchal government, then actually the worst person to hand it to is 'the legitimate claim to the throne' guy. To actually change the government requires them to actively choose not to give it to the 'rightful' person.

Instead, you choose someone with no legitimate claim to the throne, who actively stayed out of the political schemes, actively fought the -real- threat the entire time, and has magic brain powers and crazy amounts of empathy.
I was not a deep follower of the show but to me all of that seemed obvious from the show as I watched it.

Same with Dany, she randomly burned people to death - granted in the name of the people, but still, I thought it was clear that if she won the throne it would be more of the same "I deserve to be leader" foolishness. I still think it helped that I hadn't been invested enough to pick a rooting interest for the throne. I also thought it was obvious that Jon Snow didn't want it, so him wanting to return to the north was in keeping with that.

It just seemed like the show was spending its time showing us that the guys like Tyrion might have been the best leaders but in a system hung up on rulers and legacy his best bet was to be the person pulling the strings. In reality, at the end he is running the country even if not King with others like him, probably the best outcome.

It honestly sort of fascinated me at the time, as I heard people talking about the show or following discussions online, how fans accepted the premise that someone needed to be King/Queen and that the "rules" of the game or some gibberish prophesies or past lineage pointed to X or Y as the best choice. You could write a whole thesis on how people who live in a democracy didn't question the very premise of houses fighting over a throne but fell right in line with choosing a side of who they wanted to rule them. (I know that is something of a hot take, don't take it too seriously - it did make sense for a fantasy novel/show to be discussed within the parameters of the show itself, I just found it interesting)

I am clearly not the Game of Thrones fan that some of you are, but the succession talk makes me think of a guy I used to hang with who got VERY serious during the show about Stannis getting the throne, because he was the rightful heir and LAW MUST BE RESPECTED. Like he was dead serious about this and got FURIOUS about it at every opportunity. Mind, he was not a *fan* of Stannis, he just felt it was morally necessary IN THE REAL WORLD for Stannis to win.
This is the sort of fan I was referring to, who entangled their enjoyment of the show/books with their choice to "win" - and the idea that the wrong person might win would be a bad ending. I assume he hated the conclusion.
 
I bet I know where he was January 6, 2021.
Oh he would have been appalled by that because THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND THE LAW MUST BE RESPECTED! And the J6ers were not respectful of THE LAWS OF SUCCESSION!!
🤣
He’d have the right idea for the wrong reasons, like always.

Buuuuuut I wouldn’t know since I haven’t spoken to the guy in 10 years.
🤷‍♂️
 
If the idea in the end is -actually- to establish a non-monarchal government, then actually the worst person to hand it to is 'the legitimate claim to the throne' guy. To actually change the government requires them to actively choose not to give it to the 'rightful' person.
I always find it a bit... silly or forced when fantasy books feel the need to establish a democracy or something close. It's not out of the realm of possibility, but it more often feels like wish fulfillment than reality. You guys have elected representatives but not indoor plumbing? Okay.
I think that's the most gut-wrenching part of being a GOT fan; if they'd committed to it, cared about the project, and stuck with it for a few more seasons, almost every complaint - at least about the story itself - would likely evaporate. Even if we ended up largely in the same place, because those places would have made SENSE to get to instead of just a hand-wave "this is where we need to be so this can be over, so here we are.'
Absolutely. Even a mediocre ending would've secured GoT's spot in TV's pantheon. It's still one of the best shows ever made, but it has major caveats attached to it.
 
I am clearly not the Game of Thrones fan that some of you are, but the succession talk makes me think of a guy I used to hang with who got VERY serious during the show about Stannis getting the throne, because he was the rightful heir and LAW MUST BE RESPECTED. Like he was dead serious about this and got FURIOUS about it at every opportunity. Mind, he was not a *fan* of Stannis, he just felt it was morally necessary IN THE REAL WORLD for Stannis to win. This guy was pretty young, early-20s at the time, and he was the most legalistic guy I ever met. These “chats” woukd quickly turn to discussions of nationalism, and he would unapologetically, enthusiastically say that nationalism was GREAT. He was a also a big BIG nationalistic fan of a certain real-life nation that is currently doing a genocide, and likewise got REALLY mad at any suggestion that said nation should not get wildly preferential treatment: if I remember right, he would say “OK we shouldn’t arm foreign nations, but THAT nation should get arms ‘as a treat’”. He would NOT shut up about Stannis’ “rights”, like never. This was to the point where we wound up not talking anymore because this dude made it WEIRD. I wonder what he’s up to now.
Unsurprisingly, I think dude missed the whole point about how Robert was a usurper with no -inherent- right to the throne and the whole argument is whether or not there even IS anyone with that right anymore and if it matters. But, you know, okay. Dude stanned for Stan.

Same with Dany, she randomly burned people to death - granted in the name of the people, but still, I thought it was clear that if she won the throne it would be more of the same "I deserve to be leader" foolishness. I still think it helped that I hadn't been invested enough to pick a rooting interest for the throne. I also thought it was obvious that Jon Snow didn't want it, so him wanting to return to the north was in keeping with that.

I mean, yeah. The entire idea behind the Throne in the books seems to be that NO one that thinks they 'deserve it' actually does. Because people that feel ruling over others is their -right- are always fucking dickheads. The book, and the show to probably a lesser extent for several reasons, do make it fairly clear that Danny is a bit unhinged and not necessarily a great person. That point is made about basically everyone in legitimate contention for, or desiring of, the Iron Throne.

You could write a whole thesis on how people who live in a democracy didn't question the very premise of houses fighting over a throne but fell right in line with choosing a side of who they wanted to rule them.
I think it's a sports team thing. Kind of to TSI's point; most people even interested in watching a fantasy series are predisposed to just accept the idea of monarchy as a perfectly reasonable form of government because we are conditioned to think in fantasy it's normal and fine. Gondor DOES have a king and DID need him, after all, Boromir! We put away our reason with the fantasy of 'the good king and queen.' People are more than happy to just say 'this is a medieval fantasy and that means kings and queens are a good thing.'
I think the broader issue was that 'The Game' turned people into sports fans, rooting for a particular team. Not because monarchy is good, but because monarchy is the point of the game and it's all pretend anyway.


Absolutely. Even a mediocre ending would've secured GoT's spot in TV's pantheon. It's still one of the best shows ever made, but it has major caveats attached to it.
Yup! And D&D probably would be fighting off all the offers to make TV shows and movies instead of languishing in one of the least-viewed Netflix originals and sitting on a mountain of cancelled projects and retracted offers. They really fucked themselves with impatience and greed.

I always find it a bit... silly or forced when fantasy books feel the need to establish a democracy or something close. It's not out of the realm of possibility, but it more often feels like wish fulfillment than reality. You guys have elected representatives but not indoor plumbing? Okay.
Wait... what?
That's a fuckin' WILD take. I love you but... like.. what?

Most of medieval Italy would like to have a word with you. So would the medieval Swiss. And the ancient Athenians and like.. sometimes the Romans but not always. And medieval Russia (well, Novgorod). And medieval Iceland. And ancient Carthage. And the Hanseatic League. And the Dithmarschen...? Yeah, I think that's right, in medieval Germany... Germany? Sweden? I forget.

A lot of those examples are a LOT closer to democracy (or at least the type of representative government suggested by the ending of GoT) than people seem to realize. Much as it may claim to be so in Texan schoolbooks, America didn't invent representative communal governance.
 
I think it's a sports team thing. Kind of to TSI's point; most people even interested in watching a fantasy series are predisposed to just accept the idea of monarchy as a perfectly reasonable form of government because we are conditioned to think in fantasy it's normal and fine. Gondor DOES have a king and DID need him, after all, Boromir! We put away our reason with the fantasy of 'the good king and queen.' People are more than happy to just say 'this is a medieval fantasy and that means kings and queens are a good thing.'
I think the broader issue was that 'The Game' turned people into sports fans, rooting for a particular team. Not because monarchy is good, but because monarchy is the point of the game and it's all pretend anyway.
I agree with this, but will say I understand the acceptance of kings in stories like LotR, where the story isn't about the notion that the leaders/systems are flawed- in fact it makes a clear point that guys like Elrond and Aragorn are noble leaders, and Theodon as well (when not corrupted by outside forces). They are leaders to rally around for the right reason.

But I felt GRRM was commenting on the problems with lineage and kings from the earliest stages of his story, so questioning "does this make any sense" was part of his storytelling.

But I also wonder if some of the sports teams rooting interest is inherent in the difference between consuming TV and books, where on TV you sort of expect some characters to be the heroes, especially when played by the young, hot blonde woman and the sensitive, yet strong, handsome dude.
 
But I felt GRRM was commenting on the problems with lineage and kings from the earliest stages of his story, so questioning "does this make any sense" was part of his storytelling.
Oh, definitely. But I think, with respect, you're just giving way too much credit to the majority of the population. People aren't looking deep enough to even see that. For a lot of people it was just a fantasy show about dragons and incest where they got to pick who would look sexiest on the Iron Throne and that was as far as their brains went.


But I also wonder if some of the sports teams rooting interest is inherent in the difference between consuming TV and books, where on TV you sort of expect some characters to be the heroes, especially when played by the young, hot blonde woman and the sensitive, yet strong, handsome dude.
As above... that's 100% it. People that deep-dive into a DENSE fucking book series like this are just not the same as people who are maybe religious about watching 1 hour of television every week a dozen or fewer times per year.
 
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