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Good lord yes this.

My father used to say that guys like Cameron who were financially successful had “figured it out” artistically. Love you, Dad, but you have no idea what you were talking about. In my view, *consistent* commercial artistic success has less to do with creating great art and more with appealing to the lowest common denominator possible as to audience accrual . . . and something intentionally designed to “please the masses” is just never gonna be the *best* art, and it is likely not particularly “good” at all, although some gems do slip through the public’s meat grinder.

The Bay v Cameron argument is sound. I can’t think of any Bay films I think are “good”, but they sure make money. Cameron hasn’t made a good movie since the early 90s, and yet his WORST films (Avatar, Titanic) have made TONS AND TONS of money. And I can think of dozens of wonderful films that barely made money at all.

And for the record: I will take that Reiner run over pretty much any of the directors mentioned. Reiner is amazing.
Agree with all of this.

But I'll go back on my statements and also defend Cameron a little bit here; I think what gets these people in trouble is that their commercial success usually comes from an initial ARTISTIC success. I think a lot of these guys made objectively good, interesting art. Ironically, THAT'S what grabs people at first. It's crazy that you get popular from a piece of art, and then fall into a trap of no longer making art anymore, but rather just making schlop designed for mass consumption because now your name is out there and you have the best chance you've ever had to grab everyone's attention all at once and don't want to lose it.

Alien and Terminator are -objectively- good (fight me). They feel like they have something to say, and they feel like they were made by a person that specifically WANTED to make that -specific- piece of art mostly as it appears in its final form. It just trails off very quickly after that.
 
My brother in law collects disability payments for his hearing and never even saw combat, and my other BIL who served and DID fight gets disability for a few things. Both were diagnosed with PTSD as well. Anyway, I'm sure everyone in Mogadishu now has severe hearing impairment.

I SERIOUSLY recommend the book. Not everyone looks like Josh Harnett so it's easier to keep track of people (though I did do a spreadsheet) and the author also went there to interview people from the other side as well. I still feel the book would make an amazing Band of Brothers type of miniseries.
 
For me it's a bit more nuanced, because directors, just like the medium itself, I feel are allowed to (and even should) change and evolve. I know many folks, both in the industry and out of it, love to pretend that movies are some giant, elite art form, and granted, oftentimes they are. Some films are genuine works of art, others are well-made fun, others are dumb fun, and others are just slop. There's room for all of it, and just because a director might cut his teeth on one form doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to try something new, or even pursue a passion project. Being able to direct and produce really well-made movies doesn't mean that you necessarily have good taste when it comes to your personal life; sometimes you get Del Toro's Frankenstein, other times you get Megalopolis. But we definitely pigeon-hole directors just as much as we do actors or singers.

Like others have said, Edgar Wright's movies have always sort of been cult classics, aside from a few notable hits here and there. Shaun of the Dead, obviously, but one could argue that that's just as much- if not moreso- Simon Pegg's accomplishment than his, and even then, the movie is still something of a cult classic. The vast majority of his movies have shared screenplay credits, and many utilize pre-existing properties, so while undeniably his, they also share someone else's DNA. That said, where the man definitely exceeds is style- his movies are all very fast, frenetic, and fun, sometimes to the point of exhaustion. But you could also argue that he leaves a very unique fingerprint on the film landscape and utilizes the medium in ways that a lot of others don't, blending motion, music, editing, etc. to make a very tightly-made film. Doesn't equate to "good", obviously, but I don't think he can be accused of being a lazy filmmaker. I, for one, would consider Scott Pilgrim one of my favorite films, and while it's an effort by many that makes it so, it's definitely in large part to him.

But, to go back to the original argument, obviously Cameron's films have simplified a bit over the years. Love them or hate them, you can't deny that he puts a lot of thought into them- effects-wise, lore-wise, etc. It's beyond clear that the Avatar movies are his passion projects. I suppose you could say the same about most of his projects- like Del Toro, they all revolve around something he's overly passionate about; some directors are lucky enough to have their passion projects really connect and pop off, while others have to trade one big studio tentpole for a smaller passion project. Every filmmaker has their "dud"- even Spielberg has had some lesser films; I think the "why" is just as important as the "what"- did the director really have that much say over the finished product, or is studio interference, budget issues, difficult actors, etc. to blame? Heck, some directors are criticized because they continue to make the same kind of movies, whether the quality declines or not. They don't change enough with the times, and the formula that once worked really well for them is now considered stale, ironically because a lot of times, other directors will copy their style- often to a lesser extent- and the audience grows tired of it through them, not the original director.

Point is, quality is completely indicative of the times, and the times are always changing. What's good now may not be good ten years from now, and what sucks now might get a retrospective assessment down the road and be considered ahead of its time. Nowadays, films are considered a "bomb" if they didn't do well at the box office, regardless of quality or if they find an audience on streaming, so many great films are just completely disregarded due to things outside of their control. Either way, though, I think there's room for all of it, and I don't necessarily think it's fair that big-budget popcorn flicks are often held to the same standards as the more refined Oscar-bait movies. These days, opinions are a dime-a-dozen, and everyone wanting to both feel like theirs is important or feel like they have to fit in with others and are thusly ashamed to admit they like something others may not, it feels like everyone is an armchair expert on movies. And don't get me wrong, I'm every bit as guilty of it as anyone else.

TLDR- I think we may be being too hard on movies. That may feel like an ignorant, stupid thing to say, but I do feel like the old metrics with which we judged movies need to be re-assessed a bit.
 
For me it's a bit more nuanced, because directors, just like the medium itself, I feel are allowed to (and even should) change and evolve. I know many folks, both in the industry and out of it, love to pretend that movies are some giant, elite art form, and granted, oftentimes they are. Some films are genuine works of art, others are well-made fun, others are dumb fun, and others are just slop. There's room for all of it, and just because a director might cut his teeth on one form doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to try something new, or even pursue a passion project. Being able to direct and produce really well-made movies doesn't mean that you necessarily have good taste when it comes to your personal life; sometimes you get Del Toro's Frankenstein, other times you get Megalopolis. But we definitely pigeon-hole directors just as much as we do actors or singers.
I don't think this is different from other creatives. I also don't think we're saying they can't change how they do things. A fantasy author can become a crime author and still write GOOD books even if they're not books I want to read. But if a good author writes six absolutely trash novels in a row, maybe they're not a good writer anymore.


obviously Cameron's films have simplified a bit over the years. Love them or hate them, you can't deny that he puts a lot of thought into them- effects-wise, lore-wise, etc.
I absolutely can deny that. I categorically reject the idea that anyone that -seriously- writes the word 'unobtanium' into a script has put any thought at all into it.
 
commercial artistic success has less to do with creating great art and more with appealing to the lowest common denominator possible as to audience accrual
Or, and this one nobody likes to think about, just dumb fucking luck, which also sinks just as many truly great movies (looking at you Master and Commander).
And for the record: I will take that Reiner run over pretty much any of the directors mentioned. Reiner is amazing.
He's a good'n and that streak is fantastic. Like, Spielberg's got a great run, too, but I don't think he set the bar in as wide a range of genres.
I absolutely can deny that. I categorically reject the idea that anyone that -seriously- writes the word 'unobtanium' into a script has put any thought at all into it.
The only defense I'll make of unobtanium (while also agreeing it was an absolutely terrible choice and somebody should have told him no) is that it was a term in scifi literature discourse for a while, and those terms do move into the text of genre fiction. For example Pacific Rim just using the term 'kaiju' in-world which implies that world had kaiju movies before they had actual giant monsters attacking.

I think unobtanium was Cameron lampshading that the resource wasn't the important part of his story. It's the briefcase in Pulp Fiction or the Rabbit's Foot in Mission Impossible 3 (they did eventually make that into something, but originally it's just a vague object everyone wants). As I said elsewhere, I think he was making his story simpler because to really examine colonialist expansion you've got to make it just as much a cultural drive as a resource one, and he didn't want, or perhaps know how, to go that dark.

Again though, you're absolutely correct that it's probably the most immersion-breaking element in the whole film and putting a big neon sign over it was not the way to solve that problem.
 
I don't think we need to view accolades as eternal. Someone can have been a good director, and then become a bad director. Just like someone can have been a good actor and become a bad actor. I think this is especially true with the kinds of people that buy into their own hype. Writers, directors, actors, musicians; once they start believing the Internet fanboys' claims that they are the greatest X ever, they start believing it, and they stop TRYING.
Fame and wealth change a person. It's a lot easier to find interesting things to say about the world when you're barely making ends meet.
It's the briefcase in Pulp Fiction
I think the briefcase is a little different because it's a commentary on MacGuffins writ large.
 
I think the briefcase is a little different because it's a commentary on MacGuffins writ large.
Is it, or is it just another one? It's an object people want, but the film gives basically no thought to it otherwise. That seems just like an example of a McGuffin. I'm sure Tarantino would say it's a commentary because he thinks very highly of his own writing, but in order to be that there has to be a comment made somewhere in the work and I don't see that from Pulp Fiction. Tarantino can make commentary. Inglourious Basterds, Hateful 8 and D'Jango all make commentary on the ideas of how to fight racism and fascism and the notion of justified violence (Quentin is very pro 'justified' violence if we're taking his filmography as his POV).

To me Pulp Fiction is just another one to add to the list for McGuffins. I don't think that work makes it important enough to the plot, nor has the characters or world examine it enough to be a commentary.
 
The evils of parasocial relationships are also at play here:
Once “we” have decided we “like” an artist, we tend to cling to that and make excuses for garbage, same for if “we” have decided we “don’t like” one.

Soooo many “popular” artists skate through on the presumption of their “legend”, which is frequently an “emperor with no clothes” situation where a public artistic figure is getting tons of accolades due to a hyped public perception of something that doesn’t even exist. Which isn’t even to say they are “bad” artists, just obviously not “great”. The vast majority of “celebrity” artists fall into this category.
 
The mid-teen and I saw Frankenstein last night. I haven't seen a del Toro movie since HB2:TGA. I don't know what I expected, but I didn't expect that. Neither did the kiddo. We were both highly impressed, she said it was much sadder than she was prepared for. I think she she even teared up at the end.
I did break her heart when I told her that her Andrew Garfield was supposed to be the monster until he had to drop out just before filming began.
 
did break her heart when I told her that her Andrew Garfield was supposed to be the monster until he had to drop out just before filming began.
I love Garfield, but I gotta say that I don’t think he could have brought all that Elordi brought to the role. Especially the physical work. It’s not about Elordi being “better”, just there was a . . . something about Elordi that just worked.

I’m delighted by young actors like Elordi because I have always been a cynical motherfucker about young “hot” actors (especially white males), even when I myself was young, and it pleases me that there are so many of them right now that I actually think are GOOD.
 
Fame and wealth change a person. It's a lot easier to find interesting things to say about the world when you're barely making ends meet
A story Cameron told about the period when he was writing Terminator was how he couldn't afford food and his mom was sending him money so he'd go to Burger King and get the two for one whopper deal every other day so he'd eat one a day.

And I don't even begrudge Cameron for raising his Oscar in the air and quoting his hit movie, that makes total sense and he has every right to be thrilled about himself there. But yeah, the struggling, on the verge of starving artist is a completely different person from the guy making avatar. And I dunno, reading stuff I wrote when I was in my twenties is pretty different from what I write now... Mostly... My sense of humor has barely evolved. But it's natural for an artist to change, evolve, grow, and sometimes have their soul die as they get older. I dunno, I haven't watched anything the guy has done in over 25 years as he no longer speaks to me. Terminator, Aliens, and Abyss are really wonderful at least.
 
The only defense I'll make of unobtanium (while also agreeing it was an absolutely terrible choice and somebody should have told him no) is that it was a term in scifi literature discourse for a while, and those terms do move into the text of genre fiction. For example Pacific Rim just using the term 'kaiju' in-world which implies that world had kaiju movies before they had actual giant monsters attacking.
But there COULD be kaiju movies without there being real life kaiju. Kind of like when zombie media does everything its fucking power, no matter how RIDICULOUS it sounds, to avoid the use of the word 'zombie.' And the defense of the word unobtanium is like a wrestler cutting a promo and being like "this is not a kayfabe beef, I'm mad for REAL.' Like.. okay. You may think that sounded cool, but all you did was point out how fake ALL of this is.

Maybe more to your point, it's like a movie trying to take itself deadly serious, but actually using the word 'McGuffin' for the McGuffin. I get that it's a word -in the discourse-, but it's not a word that should ever be -in the fiction itself-. No more than you'd have characters reading stage directions in the movie.


I think unobtanium was Cameron lampshading that the resource wasn't the important part of his story.
Oh for sure. But he did it in the laziest, stupidest possible way that any decent writer on the planet could have told him was blatantly insulting to the audience and idiotic. "Hey guys, come see my movie where the smurfs are looking for Whocaresium. What is it? Doesn't matter. The movie is actually about how much I want to fuck smurfs."

When you tell me that a central driver of the plot (if not actually the point of the film, of course) doesn't actually matter, then your fucking story doesn't matter and you're a shitty story-teller-.

Goddamn. I'm gonna stop, because I will write an entire thesis on why Cameron should be fucking kneecapped for even making Avatar.


Fame and wealth change a person. It's a lot easier to find interesting things to say about the world when you're barely making ends meet.
I'll have to take your word for it, I guess. I've never been famous and wealthy. But it certainly seems like plenty of famous/wealthy people have still managed to make compelling art.
 
Late to the party but -

1 - I want to fully reserve judgement on Avatar until the full series is done. Maybe this is building to something and we don't know it yet. To compare to the LotR films, if the source material was unknown what would we have thought about the first film? They killed off two of the best characters, wasted 30 minutes on some prologue stuff, what are these Hobbits supposed to represent, Frodo seems pretty pathetic for an action hero, and we never even get close to the Mordor place.

2 - RE: The Hobbit - the Hobbit was a misfire because even though that book and the LotR trilogy are connected they really do not gel together at all - not on paper, not anywhere. Tolkien famously went back to revise the Hobbit to have it match the tone of the trilogy and abandoned the idea as it just didn't work. I think ultimately the same problem derailed the films, which in addition were not helped by expanding to three from two. The Hobbit in book form is essentially a children's chapter book, a series of stand alone "adventures" sort of connected by a quest. Its like trying to adapt Alice in Wonderland or The Wind in the Willows - it isn't really a single story that is meant to be digested in one sitting.

3 - Back to Cameron and making money - the man is making the films he wants to make at this point and many people seem to enjoy it. If the goal of film is entertainment (and it is ultimately, no one is spending $250 million on a 2 hr movie to make a point only, and if they are they are wasting their time), then the fact that so many people buy a ticket and feel they got their money's worth means he is succeeding at that aspect. (I admit, I do find the success of Avatar relative to its minimal place in the zeitgeist hard to figure out).

3a - Something being popular doesn't mean it was good is a) true in a purely logical argument and b) dependent on what each of us think of as good of course, so it tends to only be invoked in these discussions either to defend or deride it as "art". Most of us have liked something that was popular and also disliked something that was popular - and liked things that were not popular and disliked things that were not popular. It is almost as if we like what we like and sometimes others have the same reaction and sometimes they don't. But more importantly the reverse is not logically true either, that being popular means it was bad. That is the sort of cultural elitism that needs to go away, and has existed as the rallying cry by makers and supporters of art/entertainment efforts that most people do no embrace as being a flaw in the people that don't embrace it. I find that tedious - if I prefer the color green to the color orange, that doesn't mean I just don't get "orange" or have been brainwashed to liking "green" or means that since I don't like "orange" I must also hate all things good and pure or whatever.

3b - Pretty much all entertainment makers and critics try to convince the world that they aren't just trying to entertain but make something meaningful - I think all of us want to feel what we are doing as a job or in volunteering has some positive meaning, and at times we overstate that. And many times a film can be both entertaining and meaningful, but there is nothing wrong with just entertainment. I think everyone - creators, critics, fans, etc. - like to imbue what they enjoy with deeper meaning than is really there to help justify their time investment in it and appreciation of it. Making a point is a benefit if it happens in entertainment, but I do not think it is a requirement, nor does making a point make something entertaining when it isn't.

4 - Until I see the original edit of Star Wars before it was "saved" in the editing I will take that as hearsay - might be true, might not be - might be that no one fully got what he was going to be able to pull together once the special effects and so on were done.

I forget what else y'all were wrong about, I'll try to correct that later... 🤣
 
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