Four Horsemen Studios Mythic Legions

[fac]

Also, why is no one talking about the fact that 4H value two heads at 10 entire dollars. Which means the OTHER two heads are worth 10 dollars. Which means the entire base body, armor, and all the weapons/accessories are only worth 20 dollars. That lets you do some math on future releases, doesn't it.

It went from $50 to $40, so other two heads $10 and the body and accessories $30.

But I wouldn't assume the price reduction reflected the actual cost of the missing parts, more of a PR thing and needed to seem like a real discount.

 

[AgentGreen]

FWIW, they just sold a Cosmic Legions head 2-pack which contains a blond version of this figure's head for $11.99 retail, though they probably pre sold it for a few bucks cheaper. So a $10 discount sounds appropriate, especially since these will be sold at cons with tax figured in, so $40 even in cash.

For price logistics—I imagine like most lines, they have a budget for what's new and a budget for producing reused molds. The more reuse the cheaper the price point in some cases.

I agree with you to a point, Fac, though I'd maybe change "just ethical" to "an ideal." Artist Alley's are filled with creators selling non licensed merch, I do it, too (prints of Big 2 characters). The truth is, except for the 1% of famous comic illustrators, the people drawing your monthly books make less than a McDonalds worker, with a highly skilled trade, brutal deadlines working overtime every day, no pensions, 401ks, health insurance, etc. Which is why so many books aren't drawn in the US anymore - people in other countries with weaker currencies can get by with what the companies pay. The reason we have so many indie and creator owned books is because we have so many passionate people that want to create, and dreamers that hope to create the next hit. They are, by and large, giving their product away. But a $20 Spider-Man print can pay for their tables in AA while they try to leverage their own wares. Over the next ten year' we'll probably see a steep drop off of indie books and creators and imprints, especially as AI gets better.

Where that lands with 4H, I'm not entirely sure. It's hard for me to suss out how much revenue they make vs expenses, but gauging their age and skill level and the amount of product they put out, they might be making close to what we largely think someone like that should get paid in a perfect world, or less. At least what I'd hope they get paid.

As far as this situation goes, they are clearly too big to hide under the indie-aegis. But this is a weird example because the figure in question is really just a repaint of Neve with several repaints of an old head of theirs. It's all their components, but organized (and photographed) in a way that is problematic.

 

[thewyldman]

It went from $50 to $40, so other two heads $10 and the body and accessories $30.

But I wouldn't assume the price reduction reflected the actual cost of the missing parts, more of a PR thing and needed to seem like a real discount.

I mean these figures don’t cost them more than $15 after shipping and tariffs. There’s plenty of room to drop prices here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fac]

I mean these figures don’t cost them more than $15 after shipping and tariffs. There’s plenty of room to drop prices here

Agreed, but they aren't going to say that the two heads cost $1.87 and reduce the price to $48.13.

I do think in action figure terms, an extra head being "worth" $5 each seems about right to me.

 

[fac]

I agree with you to a point, Fac, though I'd maybe change "just ethical" to "an ideal." Artist Alley's are filled with creators selling non licensed merch, I do it, too (prints of Big 2 characters).

I think it is a bit different when it is an artist making something unique for a single customer - even if it includes a licensed character, the customer is paying for the craftsman as much as anything. And the IP holder might figure it isn't that big of a deal as it is almost for non-commercial use.

I do think prints using established IP with multiple reproductions of the same image is more of an infringement issue (for me).

 

[Poe Ghostal]

This was a really dumb, completely avoidable blunder on 4H's part. I can only assume they've just gotten careless over the years with all their MOTU and now Conan homage figures.

However, the real reason I felt like commenting is that the Red Sonja character we know from popular culture already toed the IP line with Howard's Red Sonya character when Marvel was publishing Conan books in the 70s. Whether Marvel should have been able to copyright that character in the first place is debatable, but they were granted the copyright anyway. Red Sonja, LLC now owns the Red Sonja copyright, but they have to license all of her world and supporting characters from Cabinet Entertainment, who owns all the rest of Howard's IP. As far as I can tell, both Red Sonja, LLC and Cabinet Entertainment are just IP holding companies, i.e. parasites who buy up lapsing IP and contribute nothing of value to society.

Stealing IP from creators is indefensible. Stealing IP from IP holding companies is textbook Robin Hood shit and should be encouraged and applauded.

My understanding was that Marvel never owned Red Sonja at all. She was a take on the Howard character an thus owned by his estate, and was then spun off into its own LLC.

as a treat let’s all laugh at their only attempt at an original IP where they weren’t bullied into it by fans.

A look at the Magma Corps line from Four Horsemen Studios

sourcehorsemen.com

MAGMA CORPS!!!!

Boy was everyone confused and upset when the follow up the highly detailed and articulated (and brittle!) Xetheus was an “urban vinyl” copaganda figure! And they went all fucking in!

I’m not funny enough to say anything here to razz it that just reading the full page on your own wouldn’t do.

I forgot all about Magma Corps. That was definitely a weird little tangent they did.

Speaking of IP, one thing I find fascinating about all the WB/Netflix/Paramount drama is the fact that in a decade or less, Superman and Batman hit the public domain.

 

[AgentGreen]

I think it is a bit different when it is an artist making something unique for a single customer - even if it includes a licensed character, the customer is paying for the craftsman as much as anything. And the IP holder might figure it isn't that big of a deal as it is almost for non-commercial use.

I do think prints using established IP with multiple reproductions of the same image is more of an infringement issue (for me).

No, I'm referring to mass produced prints, not one off commissions. Go to any artist alley and that will be almost all you'll see... everything from Pokemon to DBZ to Star Wars to Marvel and DC characters, so much so that even people who are big name artists still sell unlicensed Marvel and DC prints. And that is in spite of the fact that we sign agreements not to do that when we buy our tables.

It reminds me of the brown-bag booze scenario Bunny Colvin created (for all you Wire fans.) The cops know there's booze in that bag, but they ain't gonna roll up on your stoop so long as you aren't making a scene. It's a shades of gray agreement for a world that isn't black and white.

If Marvel or DC wanted to they could shut down NYCC's Artist Alley in a second. But they don't. Why not? Because it's valuable for them to keep it open. The piece of action they'd get from that pie is chump change. Meanwhile, they benefit from free advertisement. Their brands are getting eyeballs and keeping them fresh and sharp. And then they can also shop for talent. Go to a Marvel portfolio review, and they'll only want to see your drawings of Marvel characters. Since their company is built entirely on freelancers, A.A. allows their work force to maintain income between gigs, which is also cheeper than... paying them a livable wage. And all they have to do is not do anything.

What I wouldn't do, however, is sell fan-art prints of an indie or small time creator's work unless I had some agreement worked out. But Wolverine? Yeah, totally.

This doesn't exactly 1:1, though, with the toy industry, which is likely more lucrative than comic books. And I would not have been as brazen as 4H to market the character on the throne, which seems to be an iconic Red Sonja image and is the biggest theft argument. But I think two red haired pack ins on a repaint of their own character is fine. If the only thing that stands in violation is hair color, and it's a color that real people actually have, that's not much to go on. They could have put this character out 100% as originally intended and called her Scáthach as part of Figura Obscura and it'd be fine.

 

[TheGillMan]

My understanding was that Marvel never owned Red Sonja at all. She was a take on the Howard character an thus owned by his estate, and was then spun off into its own LLC.

My understanding is that is what the Howard estate thought, but it was...complicated. She is a take on a Howard creation, but she is different enough to be considered legally distinct. Marvel thought they owned her, Howard's estate thought they owned her, so on and so forth. In the end, she was spun into a legally distinct IP that neither Marvel nor REH own. Interestingly, many characters created for her book, like Kulan Gath, are still owned by Marvel.

 

[Dek]

My understanding is that is what the Howard estate thought, but it was...complicated. She is a take on a Howard creation, but she is different enough to be considered legally distinct. Marvel thought they owned her, Howard's estate thought they owned her, so on and so forth. In the end, she was spun into a legally distinct IP that neither Marvel nor REH own. Interestingly, many characters created for her book, like Kulan Gath, are still owned by Marvel.

Kulan Gath first appeared in Conan 14 from Marvel (Alongside Elric coincidentally enough.) so, I think he would be associated more with Conan than Red Sonja, unless there is a connection between them I am unaware of. Though I wonder if Moorecock could lay claim to him because of them appearing in comics together for the first time. Probably not.

 

[docsilence]

What I wouldn't do, however, is sell fan-art prints of an indie or small time creator's work unless I had some agreement worked out. But Wolverine? Yeah, totally.

This is a good ethical line to hold, honestly. It's also why you see folks like Critical Role or Homestuck have to create fan art policies, because comic cons will fill up with unlicensed art and it actually can be enough to put them out of business, whereas you can have 60 artists selling Wolverine prints and Marvel won't feel it. It does suck when you're selling original work and the booth next to you is making bank selling unlicensed Batman prints, but that's as much on the attendees only wanting something familiar and unwilling to try out something new as it is on the artist selling the prints. My first show I was talking with one artist, I'm blanking on his name right now but modestly big name, was complaining - everyone in artist alley complains, it's our national sport - and he looks back at his signage that is ALL unlicensed IP work and he just shrugs and says "I'll bitch and bitch but I know where my bread is buttered" and points at his Emma Frost.

So much of artist alley is just playing chicken with C&Ds, though. I'm still trying to figure out how Zenescope and Jamie Tyndall got away with White Widow for as long as they have (and I like Jamie, I tabled next to him two shows in a row, not a knock on him, just wonder what magic his legal team works). I mean holy shit his selling Magik as Mutant Sorceress Yellow and Emma as Mutant Diamond Icy on his site right now.

 

[Revox]

Never mind all the IP stuff, the best, purest reason to hate on them is their fuck awful articulation, or the lack thereof. It's the 2020s, single joints just don't cut it any more, fuckos! I think I've seen less than a half dozen (if that!) offerings with double bend elbows/knees, the rest are like fuckin' antiques.

 

[AgentGreen]

This is a good ethical line to hold, honestly. It's also why you see folks like Critical Role or Homestuck have to create fan art policies, because comic cons will fill up with unlicensed art and it actually can be enough to put them out of business, whereas you can have 60 artists selling Wolverine prints and Marvel won't feel it. It does suck when you're selling original work and the booth next to you is making bank selling unlicensed Batman prints, but that's as much on the attendees only wanting something familiar and unwilling to try out something new as it is on the artist selling the prints. My first show I was talking with one artist, I'm blanking on his name right now but modestly big name, was complaining - everyone in artist alley complains, it's our national sport - and he looks back at his signage that is ALL unlicensed IP work and he just shrugs and says "I'll bitch and bitch but I know where my bread is buttered" and points at his Emma Frost.

So much of artist alley is just playing chicken with C&Ds, though. I'm still trying to figure out how Zenescope and Jamie Tyndall got away with White Widow for as long as they have (and I like Jamie, I tabled next to him two shows in a row, not a knock on him, just wonder what magic his legal team works). I mean holy shit his selling Magik as Mutant Sorceress Yellow and Emma as Mutant Diamond Icy on his site right now.

Well that's another issue - most AA artists selling unlicensed merch don't maintain web shops. I mean some do, but most don't. Their stores only have stuff that's theirs or they legally own or licensed. Which I think helps the AA live in the "brown bag."

The thing is... a "successful" artist alley print sells like, 10-15 copies per con, unless you are in the 1% of name talent. So maybe $200-$300 per print, not including print costs. It's not a lot. I'd say 20% of AA artists lose money attending the con if they are honest with their entire expense sheet. Maybe 30% break even. 40-45% make a decent take (which means there's a financial incentive to be there) and 5%-10% make a respectable take and can buy the crew rounds at the bar after. Selling original published art from a big IP will net you more, but you can't do that if you work digitally (which is generally much faster) At SDCC I tabled next to two guys were in the hole until they sold their original art (of IP they didn't own.)

Strangely the people that tend to sell a lot of prints, are the ones who make their brand "I do 8 bit versions of every IP under the sun." They have some sort of shtick... like word art, all Playmobil looking characters... whatever... they just have a ton of it, and enormous displays. Often they get too big for AA and are bumped to exhibitor... I'm a little surprised they're allowed to keep going. They aren't comic artists making a go of it, they really are a lucrative business in their own right and have no intention of making comics. I consider that a different animal.

Anyway, enough paper talk. Moving onto plastic—I'm still waiting on someone to post a review online of Bodvar while I wait for BBTS. I think he's going to be my favorite thing 4H has done. He's a gift for my wife, and I'm very jealous.

 

[docsilence]

Never mind all the IP stuff, the best, purest reason to hate on them is their fuck awful articulation, or the lack thereof. It's the 2020s, single joints just don't cut it any more, fuckos! I think I've seen less than a half dozen (if that!) offerings with double bend elbows/knees, the rest are like fuckin' antiques.

Despite my running my mouth off in this thread the past 24 hours, I do like the stuff of theirs I own, but now that I've got a handful of Savage Crucible barbarian figures in hand, it's just wild how much better the articulation is.

Anyway, enough paper talk. Moving onto plastic—I'm still waiting on someone to post a review online of Bodvar while I wait for BBTS. I think he's going to be my favorite thing 4H has done. He's a gift for my wife, and I'm very jealous.

I'm not one to make a Youtube video but I just got mine delivered this morning - if you have any specific questions I'm happy to let you know how he turned out.

 

[superdoug55]

I remember a run in with IP issues that one of my friends had. My wife and I have been very active in Ultimate over the years and one team that a bunch of our friends were on tried to be cute and did a joke/fun team jersey. It said “It’s a Trap!” and had a silhouette of Ackbar on it. They wore it as one of their jerseys at one tournament (so maybe for 2 or 3 games over a two day span) and received the cease and desist letter before they ever went to a second tournament. Lucas still had the rights back then and man were they fast and furious. There was no hey just so you know you cannot use those jerseys. It was flat out we are suing you if those shirts are ever see again. They maybe made 20-25 shirts for the cost of the shirt and putting the print on the shirt.

 

[secondwhiteline]

Speaking of IP, one thing I find fascinating about all the WB/Netflix/Paramount drama is the fact that in a decade or less, Superman and Batman hit the public domain.

I'm no IP expert, but I'm under the impression it would be like with Mickey, where Steamboat Willie the work is now in public domain and the early design of Mickey is, so you can release things with that very specific original design or release your own copies of expired works like the Steamboat Willie short, but the name is still trademarked, and the combination of design elements still being used by Disney is still protected. So I guess theoretically someone could make Superman books with the Action Comics #1 Superman design and just not call him by his trademarked names?

Presumably it means you could reprint expired Action Comics issues, although I don't know if you'd be allowed to keep extent trademarks like "Action Comics" on the books.