Doctor Who Discussion

I felt it undid the effort put into saving Galifrey in the 50th to then have the Doctor go back to being the last of his species a few years later all over again?

Stupidity was probably too harsh, I guess I just felt it wasn't earned and didn't really go anywhere with the concept, but I probably need to revisit the episodes.
 
Makes sense. Didn't it happen off-screen too? I think I remember thinking that was kind of lazy.

I guess I was too won over by the "oh shit" of regenerating cybermen. I've a soft spot for when old stuff is repurposed in unexpected ways.
 
Just announced, Disney out after the War Between the Land and the Sea - next episode will be a 2026 Christmas Special, which will be written by Davies.

Assume they will clear up this Billy Piper thing and I assume a new Doctor and showrunner will take over after the 2026 special...
 
I just doubt she'd commit to it?

Also, that they didn't introduce her as the Doctor makes me think Davies has something else planned than for her to be The Doctor that is more like a one off or short run.
 
Why wouldn't she commit to it? Being the star of a worldwide beloved franchise? She's already a part of it and knows what it did for her career 20 years ago - who wouldn't want that kind of boost again? Also, she's awesome - we should be so lucky to have someone so game.

Not saying she will be in more than an episode or two, but I'd love for her to stick around. OR have it cycle through all the reboot Companions (or older - Mel was a great addition) saving the day and have no Doctor for a season. Clara saved the Doctor countless times we've never seen.

The special can even be called "Doctor Who?"

:)

Glad Disney is out. Nothing except the look of the show improved during this partnership. Sad that it cost us a great Doctor and at least a season while they dragged their feet to this foregone conclusion.
 
Speculation was that Billie is too big a name now for the BBC to pay her for a full time role?

I don't know, I mean she could be wanting to do it of course, but I think like Tennant she also knows the commitment and may not want to be The Doctor for a 3 or 4 year run and all that entails.
 
I know before the episode aired she was at a con saying she wanted to jump back in. She could've just meant as a small bit though. I love that her and Eccleston are still friends.
 
Deadline has a very interesting speculative article on all that went down.

One of the comments caught my eye, regarding 15, and it left me with a question that I'll ask after: It didn’t help that neither Whittaker’s wildly inconsistent weak woman incarnation (who spent one episode complaining about being tired standing up while an OTT gay villain mansplained her origins to her and went from the Doctor’s traditional role of disruptor to champion of the status quo) or Gatwa’s all-out on the gayness but lacking in any other dimension were strong or interesting enough personalities to compensate for the bad writing the way every previous Doctor did.

What other dimension did Ncuti bring? He brought joy, and his electric smile. And when he got mad, like in Dot and Bubble, it was a really nice change. But despite knowing the Doctor so well, I feel like we never really learned much about this Doctor. Part of that is so few episodes and the insistence on RUNNING, part of it is performance - he was either giant smile or streaming tears. Otherwise, the rest was all "honey" and "babes" which always felt like the actor - not the character.

I still haven't seen Jodie's seasons so can't comment on that part of the quote but left the full comment in for context. The article also mentions the streaming rights for the full series are now available - I hope they get combined again. Not having the history easily available is no fun. Especially for a show about history.
 
Schizm said:
Deadline has a very interesting speculative article on all that went down.

One of the comments caught my eye, regarding 15, and it left me with a question that I'll ask after: It didn’t help that neither Whittaker’s wildly inconsistent weak woman incarnation (who spent one episode complaining about being tired standing up while an OTT gay villain mansplained her origins to her and went from the Doctor’s traditional role of disruptor to champion of the status quo) or Gatwa’s all-out on the gayness but lacking in any other dimension were strong or interesting enough personalities to compensate for the bad writing the way every previous Doctor did.

What other dimension did Ncuti bring? He brought joy, and his electric smile. And when he got mad, like in Dot and Bubble, it was a really nice change. But despite knowing the Doctor so well, I feel like we never really learned much about this Doctor. Part of that is so few episodes and the insistence on RUNNING, part of it is performance - he was either giant smile or streaming tears. Otherwise, the rest was all "honey" and "babes" which always felt like the actor - not the character.

I still haven't seen Jodie's seasons so can't comment on that part of the quote but left the full comment in for context. The article also mentions the streaming rights for the full series are now available - I hope they get combined again. Not having the history easily available is no fun. Especially for a show about history.
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I think the writing for Whitaker was problematic. Being the first female Doctor and a big disruptor to the lore meant that she was bound to get unreasonable hate. However I did feel the writing was the most problematic issue because it felt like by the end of her run they were out of ideas and were doing change for the sake of change (and putting their stamp on all of Who). Which I think is where the majority of the hate comes from. The Timeless Child really was a stark (I would say) right turn on Who lore and frankly reeked a bit of copying Section 31 from Star Trek. Along with making the Doctor (basically) the origin of Galifreyans(?). Lots of big swings that I don't know fit with the established lore very well.

In a vacuum the ideas were interesting but, much like with other long lived franchises, it wasn't in a vacuum. For better or worse viewers like consistency and the longer a franchise goes the harder it is to be consistent, or change, without a backlash.

I was out after Whitaker's turn as the Doctor so I am not familiar with how his episodes went and his reception by the fans.
 
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I don't know anything about the author, but I think it's too easy for people to see Whittaker and Gatwa only by their "otherness." Whittaker is the first female Doctor, and Gatwa's the first Black (and queer) Doctor, so they get defined by those traits. Somehow, I think I've only seen Whittaker's first and final episodes, and I can only guess that her greatness in the last versus her weakness in the first is a sign of great character growth on the series. Or inconsistent writing, but I'm choosing growth.

As far as Gatwa goes, I'll say that Capaldi is my favorite version of the character, and if his first episode had been 'Space Babies' I never would've come back. I found Gatwa's first season insufferable, and it wasn't because he was wearing a skirt.

I can only speak for myself, but, as a curmudgeon, it's the old, sad, angry Doctor's I relate to the most. My wife, on the other hand, really enjoyed the joyousness of Gatwa and, as a disabled person, really appreciated the visibility they gave with characters like Shirley Bingham. I kind of want to say that this author just wasn't able to relate to Whittaker and Gatwa (for maybe obvious reasons), but that sounds kind of negative. I can't actually fault anyone for preferring a character that represents them and not connecting with a character who doesn't.
 
I don't think Whitaker was written as clearly the smartest person and best problem solver in the room enough - when she needed to be super competent and confident as the first female Doctor... They just never gave her enough instances of dominating a story as the focal point, solving it on her own - at least I don't recall it. She seemed too much like the quirky nerd member of a team and not the leader.

I still can't figure out what they were doing with Gatwa, who has charisma in spades, but wasn't allowed to use it to his full potential. The only issue I had with a minority, gay Doctor is that the Doctor isn't from Earth and probably shouldn't have too much of a personal, emotional response/reaction to issues of race and identity bothering him - he should of course reject it outright as stupid and wrong, but maybe not act like he needed to go to Africa to a barbershop for a culture to fit in, given that his only connection to said culture is based on his outward appearance for a few years, not his lifelong experiences. Assuming he didn't grow up in a culture that made those things an issue - and we have no reason to think he did - he should have (to me) been more dismissive/frustrated by any reaction based on that more than feeling personally hurt. Not sure I am explaining it but it seemed like they wrote more to possibly reflect what Gatwa may have experienced as gay, minority, immigrant and not how a thousands-of-years-old, advanced alien who has lived many lives might think about being black and gay this time.

And overall I still feel that having the Doctor being romantically attracted to the companions or even a guest star doesn't fully work. Gatwa's Doctor comes across as a real jerk to let his crush sacrifice himself after a few hours on knowing each other and end up in hell, or wherever, and the Doctor not seem to want to do anything about. Moffat would have had his Doctor focus on fixing that in the next episode or not do it.

Ultimately the stories were often just not that good. I view the Doctor being the template for the Timelords to be a poor story choice along the lines of "The Emperor Returned" as not adding much while undermining a lot.
 
fac said:
I don't think Whitaker was written as clearly the smartest person and best problem solver in the room enough - when she needed to be super competent and confident as the first female Doctor... They just never gave her enough instances of dominating a story as the focal point, solving it on her own - at least I don't recall it. She seemed too much like the quirky nerd member of a team and not the leader.

I still can't figure out what they were doing with Gatwa, who has charisma in spades, but wasn't allowed to use it to his full potential. The only issue I had with a minority, gay Doctor is that the Doctor isn't from Earth and probably shouldn't have too much of a personal, emotional response/reaction to issues of race and identity bothering him - he should of course reject it outright as stupid and wrong, but maybe not act like he needed to go to Africa to a barbershop for a culture to fit in, given that his only connection to said culture is based on his outward appearance for a few years, not his lifelong experiences. Assuming he didn't grow up in a culture that made those things an issue - and we have no reason to think he did - he should have (to me) been more dismissive/frustrated by any reaction based on that more than feeling personally hurt. Not sure I am explaining it but it seemed like they wrote more to possibly reflect what Gatwa may have experienced as gay, minority, immigrant and not how a thousands-of-years-old, advanced alien who has lived many lives might think about being black and gay this time.

And overall I still feel that having the Doctor being romantically attracted to the companions or even a guest star doesn't fully work. Gatwa's Doctor comes across as a real jerk to let his crush sacrifice himself after a few hours on knowing each other and end up in hell, or wherever, and the Doctor not seem to want to do anything about. Moffat would have had his Doctor focus on fixing that in the next episode or not do it.

Ultimately the stories were often just not that good. I view the Doctor being the template for the Timelords to be a poor story choice along the lines of "The Emperor Returned" as not adding much while undermining a lot.
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That is always the problem when you have an alien character as your touchpoint/stand-in for the audience. They have to reflect earthly society at large while asking the audience to ignore those very facts you point out. Why would an alien, who can change race/gender (as humans know it), and lives for possibly thousands of years be affected by issues on Earth? Like you said, it would make more sense for them to dismiss it out of hand rather than being invested. If anything I would say that the Time Lords are portrayed as alien enough (for obvious reasons). I mean a race that lives long lives, and changes appearances/personalities on a regular basis probably shouldn't be portrayed as having too much social cohesion. The very nature of constant change should lead to a society that is much more isolated from each other, let alone the rest of the universe. At least based on our understanding of societal relations/dynamics. But of course that leads back to idea of human bias in writing.

I agree that the romantic relationships with companions is a bit forced because of said dynamics. I also liked how Capaldi's (I think) Doctor made it seem like the companions/humans were more akin to children/pets as a relationship rather than equals. I especially like his last episode when he meets them all again as those glass creatures. That is more of what I think the Doctor feels for companions. Love and sadness to a degree, but not the deep romantic love.
 
This is where I let logic take a back seat to presentation. In general, I think science fiction *should* be a look at ourselves. So an alien character dealing with modern social issues is welcome, even if the logic of the species doesn't really hold up.

I say "in general" because I don't know the barbershop episode you're taking about. I'm guessing it's just as blunt as the rest of the series in its messaging, though, and I'm not prepared to defend it specifically.
 
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The idea was the Doctor would go to a neighborhood barbershop in Nigeria (not known for being open to gay men I might add but not mentioned) because he could "be himself" there and fit in, as if the Doctor had any connection to African heritage at all.

I have no objection to him dealing with modern (or in this case, past and future as well) social problems but the implication that those social problems were now part of the Doctor's personal history was not the best writing.

I don't want to come down too hard on it, given how some of the objections from certain fans to Whittaker and Gatwa clearly were complaints the Doctor was not a majority British Male, but Davies in particular with Gatwa seemed too often to be writing to make a point than writing a character.
 
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