Ru1977
The Irishman
That was a real twist ending there.
Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion
- Thread starter Ru1977
- Start date
joshsquash729
Born on the cob
An interesting point. I'll agree that I do think RDJ's portrayal probably enabled many a real-life d-bag to act out their similar fantasies, and while Tony could be a bit grating at times, I feel he always had his redemptive moments. I feel he's kinda like the Punisher to a lot of toxic people- they love and idolize the character while completely misunderstanding who they are and what they stand for. I'm not familiar enough with Tony in the comics to be able to say if he was super faithful to him as a whole, or just faithful to certain versions of him; let's face it- every superhero has gone through unlikable phases in their long histories.
I guess I can't fault anyone for whom he falls flat, though. I just can't imagine liking the MCU without at least appreciating what RDJ brought to it. Is he my favorite character in the MCU? Dunno. Hard to say. But he definitely had perhaps the biggest impact. Do I think he needs to be brought back as a totally different character? Definitely not, but I'm still waiting to see what they do with it and if they thread that needle. Part of me is still expecting some unique spin on things.
I guess I can't fault anyone for whom he falls flat, though. I just can't imagine liking the MCU without at least appreciating what RDJ brought to it. Is he my favorite character in the MCU? Dunno. Hard to say. But he definitely had perhaps the biggest impact. Do I think he needs to be brought back as a totally different character? Definitely not, but I'm still waiting to see what they do with it and if they thread that needle. Part of me is still expecting some unique spin on things.
Ru1977
The Irishman
Well, not to mention the damned Musk cameo in Iron Man 2. It's not as bad as Home Alone 2 but still. Let's not do those anymore.
Chooch555
Thoughtful
Are there other real life cameos in sequels we should look out for? Whose the next autocrat?
CTV
Ponderous
I never liked Tony Stark in the comments or the movies, but I don't consider him the kind of character who's meant to be likable so it never bothered me to read or watch him. I feel the same way about Ryan Reynolds and Deadpool, together and separately.
Ru1977
The Irishman
Uh.... How about Vanilla Ice in the second Ninja Turtle movie? Not an autocrat but still torturous.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2025
- Messages
- 1,552
I do think he acts the role well.
Though while I like parts, and some parts I like very much, I actually *don’t* really like the MCU as a whole. It doesn’t bring much of what I like about comics to the screen, and it adds stuff I don’t much care for. I don’t relate to a lot of the “quip” humor, and specifically in Tony’s case he comes off as an unrepentant and cruel bully who never really changes or gets comeuppance in that regard, and also his last act is a callous “shoot from the hip” genocidal swagger of force. All the things he could have done with the stones, and he chooses “neener neener neener, now you and your whole army [of enslaved creatures] get to be dust now, I AM IRON MAN!” Yuck. He press-ganged a young teen into a super-powered army by threatening his aunt. He built said child a suit with a murder-kill mode. Moral event horizon: jumped beyond recovery.
He knows he has one try with the IG before his brain gets fried, and he has seen what happens when Thanos gets the Gauntlet (he kills half the life in existence), and so if he screws up and doesn't end Thanos threat who knows what happens next?
Sometimes you can't have mercy, and to me any blood on hands from Tony snapping away Thanos' forces can be found on Thanos hands who chose to enslave them to serve his purpose. I mean, hard to take Thanos side of this...he chose this path.
And the whole "I am Iron Man" is him realizing what he needs to do, even though he loses his life in the process.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2025
- Messages
- 1,552
Ehhhhhh I’d say that’s the key quality that makes a hero, a hero. That’s my biggest gripe with IS-era MCU: by and large, many of the characters feel like willing-to-kill mercenaries more than superheroes. The whole “being merciful, finding a better way” thing is one of the things I like most about comic book heroes. Beyond Captain America and a few others, I didn’t find much of that in that era of the films.
Winter Solder is a damn fine film.
I generally agree with that, but I don't feel bad when Luke destroys the Death Star or the Ring melts and Sauron dies, sometimes evil reaps what it sows. That's true in the real world as well.
To me, a hero never starts the fight, and tries to be the better person in trying to end the fight, and isn't cruel and shows mercy if they can, but sometimes they have to do something they wouldn't do because that is the only choice.
To me, a hero never starts the fight, and tries to be the better person in trying to end the fight, and isn't cruel and shows mercy if they can, but sometimes they have to do something they wouldn't do because that is the only choice.
Ru1977
The Irishman
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2025
- Messages
- 2,119
My guess is the argument here is the degree of separation and the specific conditions. Luke destroyed an object that was literally a weapon that was -literally- about to murder thousands, and had already murdered billions. That's one of those 'no choice' exceptions. Sauron gets the degree of separation in that A) it was actually another 'villain' that killed him and B) all anyone did was destroy an object that was essentially a weapon, a torture device, and a mind control tool all in one. It was Sauron that tied his ability to be a physical being in with the existence of that object (and not something the people that destroyed it even necessarily knew he had done).
I tend to not care if heroes kill, because I'm fine with a more pragmatic take on heroism. But I do get that for some people the power of the SUPERhero good guy is that they can and do choose not to kill - oftentimes no matter what. And I can see the argument that a lot of modern superhero films aren't doing a good job of capturing that.
joshsquash729
Born on the cob
But hadn't Thanos killed/erased untold bajillions of people throughout the universe? And was about to do so again, alternate version of him or not?
It's certainly an interesting point, and one that's really only begun to be explored in recent years- the faces behind the evil and all the collateral damage. We never really think of the random employee on the Death Star- yeah, most were probably there by choice, but I'm sure there were some who weren't. Even still, even the evil folks have friends and feelings. Admittedly, I never really looked at the Chitauri/Outriders as anything but faceless, mindless drones. They're not even really given the slightest bit of personality in the films, so I think it's easier to see them as just bloodthirsty, evil creatures that only destroy. Granted, I still have only seen Endgame once in its entirety, so if this is ever clarified, I don't remember it.
To me, I think the only hero I care about killing or not is Batman, since he makes such a big deal on his moral code. No one else (that I know of) has such strong feelings one way or another. Some, I'm sure, don't want to kill, but know they may have to if it comes down to it. I'm sure it also depends on the level of evil- they probably wouldn't kill a random bank robber, but a Thanos level threat that won't stop as long as they're alive? I'm sure they'll do what needs to be done. Unless it's, say, the Punisher, but if you're an evildoer knowing full well you live in the same neighborhood, then I don't know what to tell ya.
Ru1977
The Irishman
Daredevil also makes a big deal about it.
I definitely get having an issue with a lot of heroes having a cavalier attitude with killing their villains off, but Thanos isn't a great example. Once in a while you'll get something like Homecoming though, where Peter does everything he possibly can to save Vulture.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2025
- Messages
- 1,552
See, that’s my beef: the cavalier attitude, which is narratively supported in the series. It’s not so much the killing itself, it’s that said killing is either lionized or else glossed over. I don’t so much have an issue with heroes killing (although many of my favorite heroes don’t kill or else try hard not to), but the “killer” characters I am drawn to frequently have their tendency to violence specifically highlighted and examined rather than glorified; when written well, Wolverine and the Punisher are examples of this. In my view, the MCU films tend to treat their heroes as killers with a shrug or a cheer. It’s all about the framing of the story.
And speaking for framing, that’s my issue with Stark: the narrative clearly elevates him as the “cool guy”, even and especially when he is constantly bullying his supposed “friends” in a “punching down” way, and generally being a fascistic narcissist. It would be one thing if he behaved the way he does and the narrative/the characters constantly derided him for it and framed him as “the mean jerk” (which is indeed a trope of classic Marvel comics, though not for Tony), but Stark is clearly lionized and supported by the storytelling: we are obviously pushed to “root” for him. It’s not that I think he’s a “bad hero” so much as an obvious villain who is being framed as a hero. It literally hurts my heart to watch him gaslight and abuse Banner in AoU. And let’s be honest: a lot of RDJ’s “riffs”, especially the early ones, are disgusting and even bigoted. He’s an absolute asshole, and I just don’t find that amusing at all. If a guy like that walked into my house talking and swaggering like that, I’d throw him into the street by his ear. So watching, say, Civil War, feels insane to me, because to me there is no ideological conflict; just Steve trying to do his best and Tony continuing his trip down the toilet drain to the sceptic tank of psychopathy.
And, most distressingly, I see evidence all around me every day that he has become a Big Hero And Inspiration to all kinds of annoying bros who try to emulate him, and that is FUCKING AWFUL to watch and endure.
Anyway, yeah, that’s me being a downer and peeing in everyone’s cereal. I’d watch SnyderSupes twist Zod’s head around and scream a thousand times before I’d be comfortable with movie-Stark’s Trumpian verbal diarrhea and general awfulness.
And boy oh boy does it burn me that the films STILL move on a fulcrum of Stuff Stark Did. On the other hand, being so frustrated with the general MCU “tone” made me love Thunderbolts* because all these guys (even Walker, who is actually a good example of the “mean jerk on the team who takes justified shit for being a mean jerk” trope) are pawns who have been kicked around in this mean-spirited universe, and I want to see them succeed and thrive despite the shit they’ve had to eat.
But mostly, I’m just waiting for a reboot that includes an Iron Man I can root for*.
*I should say that pre-Quesada/Bendis Iron Man *is* a favorite character of mine, and his struggles with alcoholism and taking responsibility for himself were inspirations to me pursuing my career. So it feels like an extra kick in the junk when they yoink all the recovery out of him (he’s Carol Danvers’ AA sponsor, for crying out loud!) and actually make him MEAN. It sucks.
Last edited: