Star Wars Movie and Streaming Series Discussion

[GrumpyMatt]

Yeah, that's right on Dedra.

That whole scene with Partagaz from start to finish was amazing.

 

[Revox]

Dedra's a desk jockey who can't handle field work. And she's so caught up in her moment of triumph that she can't conceive that she's being played. It's flaw we see over and over with the Empire. Her, Krennic, Tarkin, even Palpatine ultimately. They're all so sure of themselves and that arrogance blinds them.

All that said, I felt sorry for her in the end. Effectively orphaned from 3, indoctrinated into a cruel system that drummed out any sense of empathy from her, and which created a broken person in so many ways. She never had a chance.

Speaking of Palpatine, was he just on a bender year spiced off his nut or something? For a guy able to forsee almost everything, he didn't seem to pick up on losing 3 ISB supervisors and their boss, plus Krennic, plus Tarkin, plus the whole frickin' Death Star in a little over a week.

 

[Schizm]

He was on Exegol really REALLY planning ahead.

 

[fac]

I liked, but didn't love, Andor as much as most it seems - I thought it moved a little too slow at times so that while it was engaging I thought on rewatch of some episodes it bogs down at times. Some of that is I felt Cassian was not that engaging of a character for some reason.

I did find it interesting that with Dedra, Syril, and Partagaz, you could read all three as not really knowing how "evil" the Emperor was they were supporting - the implication is that they knew he was unforgiving/tough and desired control, but they could easily have started out as true believers that the galaxy needed order (like Anakin) without knowing where that would lead. I think Syril was legit conflicted about the Ghormans at the end, Dedra was too focused on her career to really see the implications of a "Death Star" and Partagaz, that last scene was interesting in terms of did he kill himself out of pride, fear of the emperor, or regret? (I may have a hard time reading Partagaz in isolation because of Anton Lester's character from Endeavour being such an honorable and somewhat tragic figure kind of seeping into the Partagaz character for me - I never really wanted him to be "evil" per se). Basically, I don't think any of those three thought they were working for a government willing to commit genocide or blow up a planet until they were in too deep. One thing that a retelling of Star Wars could focus on would be the reaction to the destruction of Alderaan by the more basic Imperials.

One thing that I felt was a missed opportunity (maybe it would have been too on the nose) was not playing up a bit more that Bail Organa was hesitant about following up on the Death Star intel given what happens to him in a few days. I know they mention him going back to Alderaan in Rogue One, but I wish during his discussion with Andor there had been some reference to their conflicting roles - essentially Andor being on the front line and Organa "being in less danger" as a Royal Family member on a planet like Alderaan.


Also, I think any retelling of the Star Wars saga would A) work as a multi-season tv show to allow it to breathe and B) have a pretty easy first season structure of following over a few years Young Padawan Obi-Wan, Young Queen Padme, and Young Slave Anakin as they lead us through the workings/failings of the Jedi, the Republic, and the lawless Outer Rims via their perspective. There is an interesting parallel of how all of them got thrown into a life of responsibility before they were likely ready for it, were asked each be part of a system that used and manipulated them in some ways, and in the process lost their childhoods before being thrust into the conflict that brings them together at the finale of Season 1.

 

[docsilence]

They do set up that Luthen is slipping near the end pretty well. His staying the course on-planet is tantamount to suicide and those working for him know it. If I were to put thoughts in his head, I think he's a man who has said he won't live to see that sunrise he's working for, but he's also terrified he will live to see it and then live with what he's done to make it happen, and he'd rather be dead and gone and villified than stare in the mirror at the man who he had to become to build the world he wanted to see.

The nuance on that Partagaz scene. Is he mirroring Luthen in that moment, a man who realizes he doesn't want to live with the world he worked to build? Is he having a crisis of faith? Has he finally come to understand his enemy and realized they will win? He's a monster, but we get such a complex look at his soul in that final scene. Profoundly good writing. I always say I hate redeemable bad guys (especially living in a world where our bad guys are irredeemable) but COMPLEX, this show delivered.

 

[Ru1977]

@fac So glad to see you here!!!

he'd rather be dead and gone and villified than stare in the mirror

Definitely, and that certainly contributed to his recklessness at the end. It would be interesting if he even DID have explosives in the shop but chose to loiter and do it the slower way because part of him didn't want to make it offworld.

Is he mirroring Luthen in that moment, a man who realizes he doesn't want to live with the world he worked to build? Is he having a crisis of faith?

Right! It's such a quick scene, and the ending is the part that sticks out the most immediately, but the whole scene really took my attention. Just watching his face as he listens was incredible.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

My wife and I finished the show yesterday. I don't think season 2 was quite as consistently good as season 1, though the highs were undoubtedly higher. Episodes 8, 9, 10, and 11 were near-perfect. I wasn't as high on the finale as everyone else, but I might honestly need to rewatch it. It didn't deliver the same tension or excitement as the previous four. Part of that, I'm sure, is the fact that Andor is a prequel. It's the main reason I don't understand the newfound craze for prequels. Knowing where the characters wind up removes at least half the suspense.

I had three big complaints this season.

1) I don't think they knew what to do with Bix after the addiction/PTSD plotline.

Spoiler: Andor Spoiler

The baby plot felt to me like, "she's a woman, what else can we do with her?" She sure did move on from Cassian quickly. What's the excuse there? Somehow she knew that his involvement with the rebels would lead to his death?

2) I didn't care for the Cassian is a Messiah undertones.

The way the Jedi faith healer spoke to him. Bix treating him like the world's specialest boy. It was more Skywalker "chosen one" nonsense.

3) I thought the time jumps killed some of the narrative flow between episodes. I wasn't ever sure how much time had passed between major events or what development occurred offscreen. I can't really blame them. Another season or two to watch that play out would've been great, but Disney was never going to pay for it. They wound up yada-yadaing stuff that would've played out over full episodes or arcs.

Spoiler: Andor Spoiler

Luthen's increasing sloppiness and Dedra on his tail, for instance, would've made for amazing TV.

I did not expect Kleya to take the belt from Luthen as my favorite character on the show.

All in all, it was a worthy but uneven conclusion to one of the best shows ever made. Bravo to Tony Gilroy and crew.

I can't end a Star Wars post without kicking the sequel trilogy in the balls, so: Andor is yet another thing made worse by the sequel trilogy. He and others made this great sacrifice only for Palpatine and the Empire to somehow return. Garbage.

Apparently in the early planning stage for season two there was talk of a Leia cameo, but Gilroy felt it was too much of a distraction.

Thank fuck for that.

They also brought up how LFL wants to focus more on movîes than shows. I dunno, I hope they find a lane that works this well.

Over the last 10 years, Disney and other streamers have slowly remembered that spending millions on production is impossible without the movie theater business model. There's a reason movie theaters have sustained for 100 years.

Also, Kleya in the safe house was slow. Why are all these people talking instead of vacating? Felt like a really weird stall for extra screentime. She doesn't want to go to Yavin? I get the hesitation, but... really? The alternative is what exactly?

I had the same reaction. She literally repeated her dialogue at one point. It felt like creating narrative tension for the sake of creating narrative tension.

Syril was legit conflicted about the Ghormans at the end, Dedra was too focused on her career to really see the implications of a "Death Star" and Partagaz, that last scene was interesting in terms of did he kill himself out of pride, fear of the emperor, or regret?

I think Palmo Plaza was a watershed moment for the careerists. Even Syril—a real true believer—had a crisis of faith. Dedra decided the evil was necessary, or at least worth it, to move up the ladder and have a place to call home.

Her arc was probably my single favorite on the show. She went from a determined pencil pusher to a dyed-in-the-wool fascist. All that commitment to evil ultimately sent her to an Imperial labor camp.

If I were to put thoughts in his head, I think he's a man who has said he won't live to see that sunrise he's working for, but he's also terrified he will live to see it and then live with what he's done to make it happen, and he'd rather be dead and gone and villified than stare in the mirror at the man who he had to become to build the world he wanted to see.

Well said. In that famous monologue, Luthen says, "I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them." He kills Lonni, his best source, in cold blood rather than deal with the complications. He probably condemned Lonni's wife and child to death. He became a monster. But he had to.

Anakin was a piece of shit with zero charisma, interpersonal skills, or virtually any qualities that would make a woman want to have sex with him beyond 'maybe good looking depending on your tastes, and powerful Jedi.

Righteous Gemstones just had a good bit about how hot teens thought Hayden Christensen was in the early aughts.

It's hard to fix any singular problem or set of problems in the PT, because all of the problems are interlinked. For example; in order to encounter the 'I murder babies' problem with the Tuskans, we need to create the problem of civilized, ostensibly 'good' Jedi choosing not only to ignore slavery on not-Arrakis, but to specifically ignore the fact that their own Jedi apprentice's MOM is a slave and he's extremely aware of it. AND you have to create the problem that Anakin himself never did anything about it either. Like, it's just this compounding problem of every single person involved being a lunatic.

It's very funny that any analysis of the Jedi Order leaves you with the understanding that they were negligent incompetents who royally fucked up across the board. I'm confident Lucas didn't want people coming away from the prequels thinking Yoda was one of the worst leaders in fiction, but there's no other reasonable conclusion.

 

[Schizm]

It's why Anakin killing all the Younglings always makes me laugh. The Jedi suck quite a lot.

 

[Ru1977]

She sure did move on from Cassian quickly. What's the excuse there? Somehow she knew that his involvement with the rebels would lead to his death?

I think it was more she realized she was pregnant and left the rebellion to raise the child, but also knew Cassian had to keep going so she made that choice for him.

 

[Schizm]

Apparently in the early planning stage for season two there was talk of a Leia cameo, but Gilroy felt it was too much of a distraction. I get that and respect the choice, and the only reason I wish they had is probably because I want them to recast over deep fake* (and sounds like recasting would have been how she would have appeared).

*And I say this as someone okay with Tarkin and Leia in Rogue One.

Knowing that Kleya was recast TWICE before we got Elizabeth Dulau is an interesting factoid because we all lucked out on that BUT also - Elizabeth Dulau would make an EXCELLENT Leia recast. I thought she definitely could have been Leia during her first appearance until she went to meet Vel and sashayed her way across the screen. It's the eyes - she has Carrie Fisher's deep, big brown eyes - and the steel in her performance and she holds the camera's gaze.

Also, "Kleya" is such an interesting character name choice knowing there's a pretty famous "Princess Leia" just off camera.

I'd be fine with her playing Leia - but I would rather not see any more of this time. Let the past lie, so to speak.

 

[Ru1977]

Yeah, she definitely had a lot of the poise and confidence Leia requires.

 

[Ru1977]

8 Real-Life Events and Movements That Inspired Andor

 

[fac]

I think Palmo Plaza was a watershed moment for the careerists. Even Syril—a real true believer—had a crisis of faith. Dedra decided the evil was necessary, or at least worth it, to move up the ladder and have a place to call home.

Agreed. I think you could make the case that up until then (and certainly after the Death Star), that many of the Imperials simply believed in order and justice and the benefits of the Empire (possibly naively, possibly with a "the ends justify the means" outlook) - which in and of itself is not "evil" with the capital S of the Sith evil but more typical abuse of power and reduction of freedom and use of fear evil. The careerists were more amoral and interested in preserving their own power/roles than the mustache-twirling evil that destroys civilizations - in other words I wonder if they would have signed up if the Emperor had said "I plan to build a weapon to destroy planets and cull civilizations" from the get go.

 

[joshsquash729]

Regarding Luthen- I suppose there's no saying he didn't have the whole place rigged. He was also caught off guard by Dedra's arrival, so whatever else he had planned for the destruction of the shop wasn't necessarily an option anymore. He had to think quickly, and the symbolism of the sacrificial dagger was nice and appropriately theatrical for someone like him.

Regarding Bix- I didn't see it as "she's a woman, what else can she do besides giving birth?" It was a way for her to reclaim her body. After being tortured by the sound of children dying, and being assaulted by the officer, I saw it as a way for her to celebrate being herself again in both body and mind. In any other show, I might be able to see the point, but this is a show that always put women on a level- if not higher- playing field with the men. Yeah, Cinta kinda got the short end of the stick, but I have no doubt that Tony and the other writers had nothing but love for the female cast. If anything, I agree that I'd like to have seen more of her mission to find the doctor, but otherwise I felt she had a very fitting, and very brave, send-off.

Regarding Cassian- I never really saw him as a messiah figure, per se. Everyone plays a role in times of war, and a messenger is not necessarily equal to a messiah, nor do I think Cassian would ever want to be one. He helps save people and get them to their destiny, but he's not the one actively saving the day, per se. It's all in how you look at it, really, but delivering the message and inspiring people isn't quite the same as actively saving the day, though the line may be quite thin.

 

[fac]

One thing that Andor did do was up the stakes a bit with Yavin IV, as while I guess we knew it was "a" secret rebel base, not sure from the film I fully thought though what was meant of it being "the" secret rebel HQ in quite the same way as seeing it in action and knowing people there.(The importance is stated, I guess, as the end of the rebellion if it is destroyed, but I think the ticking time bomb of the Death Star - and if Luke will defuse it - has impact in the moment due to Leia, etc., watching as much as anything in the bigger picture - at least in terms of ANH)

Kind of how I felt seeing Alderaan in the Obi-Wan series adds more to that event which is like a plot point more than a tragic event in ANH, I do think that Andor and Rogue One helped make the rebellion more real by far, and Luke's appearance out of nowhere even more miraculous...