Mythological/Legends/Religious Figures combo thread

[Damien]

The more that I think about it the more I find that back story off putting. That robs Judas of so much agency. Reducing his role in the Christian narrative to just a pawn of the devil. It undermines the human differences between him and Jesus.

I don't think the Devil had anything to do with it (in Dracula 2000), right? (Genuinely asking, I could be misremembering all this.) Judas' reason for betraying Christ isn't given beyond 'he was paid to do it.' But we can still interpret that in the standard Biblical fashion that he was meant to do it as part of God's Plan. And Judas hangs himself in the movie, and is cursed by God to not be allowed to die and to prey on living things.
Which, I mean... is wild because it's literally God punishing ALL humanity for the crimes of like one dude (AGAIN). So I'd agree more with your assessment that it reverts the forgiving Father in the New Testament back to an Old Testament grimdark version of himself. It's just overall such a wild concept for DRACULA.

We might be wandering a bit far afield if this thread starts to include figures for folklore type things like vampires, mermaids, fairies, elves, trolls etc. instead of the major myths and gods from various cultures and histories. Just saying...

Kind of also goes to show how muddy these waters are, though. I think something like vampires generally (not Dracula, specifically) can be dismissed. But what about Fairies and Elves? Both are intrinsic to Celtic and Norse mythology, respectively. Mermaids maybe not, but SURELY Sirens count because they're part of Greek mythology.... I guess we could separate King Arthur stuff out because it's not intrinsically part of a religion even if it is part of cultural mythology. So we could try to say only myth stuff tied directly to religion, but then how do we determine that with religious traditions we actually don't know anything about (like, ironically, Norse).
Like I said... muddy.


Not trying to be difficult - I don't mean it that way. I just mean it may be difficult to parse what is 'just folklore' from what is 'mythology.' Unless you want to specifically trim back to just personalities viewed as 'divine' across human cultures. That would probably be a lot easier as long as we don't get insanely pedantic about 'divinity.' Haha.

 

[docsilence]

I'm prone to impulse buys for werewolves and figures that cost less than 30 dollars but it took less than 12 hours for me to find out someone had made a Zhu Baije figure, watch three reviews of him, and decide he's a must-have. Just ordered one from BBTS. I absolutely adore Journey to the West and it drives me crazy I've got a very nice Wukong (no complaints about the 4H one, honestly) but that he was all by himself. I've wanted a Baije for years. Just one of those characters from one of those stories I always wanted an action figure of and never saw one I liked (the more human version coming out next year is TOO human for me, he hits me with a bit of an arachnid reaction, but I love the Black Myth sassy lil rake-wielding boar-man look a LOT, kind of exactly what I'm looking for even if I never played the game, fits with my little perfect head canon version of him).

Appreciate the thread leading me to a version of a mythological character I NEVER thought anyone would make in a style I liked.

 

[fac]

I've wanted a Baije for years. Just one of those characters from one of those stories I always wanted an action figure of and never saw one I liked (the more human version coming out next year is TOO human for me, he hits me with a bit of an arachnid reaction, but I love the Black Myth sassy lil rake-wielding boar-man look a LOT, kind of exactly what I'm looking for even if I never played the game, fits with my little perfect head canon version of him).

Glad you found it!

The more human version is from this show - https://kaohongshu.blog/2019/11/19/still-unbeaten-journey-to-the-west-1986-tv-series/

Appreciate the thread leading me to a version of a mythological character I NEVER thought anyone would make in a style I liked.

One of my hopes from this thread is that if there are other lines and figures they can be added here and people may become aware of what is out there...

 

[altcunningham]

I remember seeing Dracula 2000 in the theater. I think I was blind for a week afterward because my eyes rolled back into my head so hard when the bit about Dracula being Judas was 'revealed". As a longtime fan of the Stoker book, and having dealt with numerous liberties taken in cinema, I have a pretty high tolerance for the various dumb things screenwriters try to shoe in to Dracula stories. That one took the fucking cake though. As sick as I am of the "Mina/Lucy is the reincarnation of Vlad's long lost love" thing that has permeated these films, I'd take that any day over the contrived, utter bullshit of making Dracula secretly be Judas.

Dracula as Jesus, though...

 

[fac]

But we can still interpret that in the standard Biblical fashion that he was meant to do it as part of God's Plan.

That's always been a fascinating theological debate to me about the implication of fate vs free will when it comes to Judas, but won't get into it here.

And Judas hangs himself in the movie, and is cursed by God to not be allowed to die and to prey on living things.
Which, I mean... is wild because it's literally God punishing ALL humanity for the crimes of like one dude (AGAIN).

Yeah, I almost made that point as well - let's just say I think this is not the most well thought out idea from either the Judas or Dracula side of things...

Kind of also goes to show how muddy these waters are, though. I think something like vampires generally (not Dracula, specifically) can be dismissed. But what about Fairies and Elves? Both are intrinsic to Celtic and Norse mythology, respectively. Mermaids maybe not, but SURELY Sirens count because they're part of Greek mythology.... I guess we could separate King Arthur stuff out because it's not intrinsically part of a religion even if it is part of cultural mythology. So we could try to say only myth stuff tied directly to religion, but then how do we determine that with religious traditions we actually don't know anything about (like, ironically, Norse).
Like I said... muddy.

Oh, 100% agreed - it gets conflated, so wasn't trying to gatekeep. Honestly, a line that focused on folklore and fairy tales would be pretty great I think, if done correctly. Or a line based on creatures like the Cyclops, Minotaur, Sirens, etc. I can't quite define it but there is a difference between a Minotaur and Zeus.

 

[fac]

My favorite interpretation of the Jesus/Judas myth is the rock opera Jesus Christ Superstar. Definitely the most interesting version of that relationship I have seen.

I am a huge fan of that as well. I've never read a truly satisfactory (to me) interview about how 25 year old Tim Rice and 23 year old Andrew Lloyd Webber came up with that take.

 

[docsilence]

Glad you found it!

The more human version is from this show - https://kaohongshu.blog/2019/11/19/still-unbeaten-journey-to-the-west-1986-tv-series/

One of my hopes from this thread is that if there are other lines and figures they can be added here and people may become aware of what is out there...

I knew he had to be from a show because he was so realistic-looking. That's a hoot. I definitely wanted a more animal-like/monstrous Baije and even if I never play the game the Black Myth version is kind of perfect for what I need on my shelf. Much appreciated.

 

[Damien]

I can't quite define it but there is a difference between a Minotaur and Zeus.

I do think it basically comes down to "The Gods/Major Heroes" and then "everything that isn't that." Because the Minotaur, to use your example, is also very important to Greek mythology if we assume the Greek heroes are important to Greek mythology, and they must be because it's what most of Greek Mythology is -about-, and they're always the Gods' kids on top of that.

 

[PanchaMaestro]

Many of the "monsters" of greek mythology are direct descendants of the gods. The heroes and heroines too. The greek myths in particular are about a time when the division between gods and people was thinner that it was when they were told.

 

[Damien]

Maybe if Zeus would stop banging chicks while dressed up as geese and shit, we wouldn't have this problem.

 

[docsilence]

Maybe if Zeus would stop banging chicks while dressed up as geese and shit, we wouldn't have this problem.

I needed one more short story for an anthology that came out last year so I snuck in an old flash fiction piece I'd written years ago about Apollo trying to figure out how to not be the worst dad in the world when his father was such a notoriously bad example. Maybe if he'd stop fucking anything that caught his eye for ten seconds...

 

[Damien]

Zeus really doesn't have a choice, though. All those heroes aren't just gonna make themselves. This is Greek Myth. We ain't got no virgin births. Zeus gotta get DOWN, 'cause that Ketos isn't gonna slay itself.

 

[TheGillMan]

Dracula as Jesus, though...

Ehhhh...I doubt that would do much for me either. I guess it could be done well, but I feel most of the time those types of stories come off as someone trying to be "edgy" and "controversial" rather than telling a compelling story. I'm usually very wary of any writer portraying someone like Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, etc. in a way that depicts them as evil, as it just seems like low-hanging fruit designed to do little more than upset believers of that particular religion. I'm sure there ARE ways that it can be done that make an artistic statement, but more often than not it just seems like it was written by a 12 year-old who is mad he has to keep going to Sunday School because mom says so.

Now, that isn't to say that there aren't horror films that play with subversions of religious iconography that DO work. Probably the closest I've seen to the concept you've suggested was the mini-series Midnight Mass, which wasn't Jesus or Dracula, but blended Christian belief and vampire folklore. I liked that one, even though the "twist" was pretty obvious. I guess it plays well to anyone who experienced religious trauma in their youth.

 

[docsilence]

Many of the "monsters" of greek mythology are direct descendants of the gods. The heroes and heroines too. The greek myths in particular are about a time when the division between gods and people was thinner that it was when they were told.

It's funny, my nephews are just starting to get into D&D and one of them asked if XYZ monster was real or not or if it was just from the game and I was like well funny thing, a lot of these things were creatures people really did believe were real for a long time because of myths... (They didn't know that a hippogriff existed before Harry Potter but when I told him he was actually intrigued instead of confused which was a good sign.)

On the Dracula/religion thing, I know Besson is problematic these days but I am curious how he handles the whole Dracula as religious allegory thing the upcoming film uses. There is some ripe storytelling for "this world is awful and it doesn't have to be, fuck your god for ignoring my prayers" that some interpretations of Dracula like to lean into. "If you insist on making faith transactional, then I am changing the terms of the deal and making it everyone's problem."

 

[AceofKnaves]

Dracula as Jesus, though..

Everyone knows Jesus was a lich, not a vampire.

On the Dracula/religion thing, I know Besson is problematic these days but I am curious how he handles the whole Dracula as religious allegory thing the upcoming film uses. There is some ripe storytelling for "this world is awful and it doesn't have to be, fuck your god for ignoring my prayers" that some interpretations of Dracula like to lean into. "If you insist on making faith transactional, then I am changing the terms of the deal and making it everyone's problem."

I don’t love the whole “cursed by a god” angle with Dracula because I think it gives the game away too much, supernaturally speaking. I don’t want to know the “origin of vampires”, especially if it ties directly into Christianity. Not a fan of Anne Rice or anyone else doing “the first vampire” or whatever, and it is even weirder when it is Dracula because even if he *was* Judas, that’s still the “first vampire” being created thousands of years after myths of vampires and vampire-like beings already existed. So like the Christian god is going “ooh that was a fun idea the humans came up with, let me make it real and have it eat them.” That’s harsh even for Christianity.
The idea of Dracula as anti-Christ figure is of course baked into the material, and many folks have run with it. Often that just means “Dracula is a creep and also probably an incel” (thanks Coppola), but I have read some interesting interpretations where Dracula is framed as quasi-heroic against the “greater evil” of Christian forces, and that is interesting.