Star Wars Movie and Streaming Series Discussion

[Fletch]

@ yojoebro82, have your camera ready to record their rescue l reactions to learning who Luke's father is.

Actually, record them learning Leia is Luke's sister too.

 

[Ru1977]

Thinking more on the stuff I would change were I to do my own PT, I'd have the split between Anakin and the Jedi Order be far more severe. I also might not even have Padme marry him. He might be a mistake she makes during a stressful period where she thought she was close to death, then she comes to realize what a clingy stalker her is. But with the Order, I would have had them figure out either Anakin was married (if you keep that bit) or that Padme was pregnant with his kids. And he'd probably suspect Obi-Wan of telling the council, but it was likely Palpatine all along. They boot him out, and Palpatine embraces him, having Anakin as his personal bodyguard and confidante. When Anakin figures out Palpatine is really a Sith and reports it to Windu, their doubt in him is more justified, and his doubt in the order is as well. The turn won't seem quite so abrupt. Finally, I would also have his suspicion of Obi-Wan and Padme run even deeper and start earlier.

I dunno... Star Wars is full of so much 'could have been's for me, that it's fun to think about this stuff, even though I'm actually more or less happy with what George did.

 

[Damien]

Thinking more on the stuff I would change were I to do my own PT, I'd have the split between Anakin and the Jedi Order be far more severe. I also might not even have Padme marry him. He might be a mistake she makes during a stressful period where she thought she was close to death, then she comes to realize what a clingy stalker her is. But with the Order, I would have had them figure out either Anakin was married (if you keep that bit) or that Padme was pregnant with his kids. And he'd probably suspect Obi-Wan of telling the council, but it was likely Palpatine all along. They boot him out, and Palpatine embraces him, having Anakin as his personal bodyguard and confidante. When Anakin figures out Palpatine is really a Sith and reports it to Windu, their doubt in him is more justified, and his doubt in the order is as well. The turn won't seem quite so abrupt. Finally, I would also have his suspicion of Obi-Wan and Padme run even deeper and start earlier.

I dunno... Star Wars is full of so much 'could have been's for me, that it's fun to think about this stuff, even though I'm actually more or less happy with what George did.

Not to be snide, but I honestly think the easiest thing to change and not have to overthink it is just make Anakin not a complete fucking loser. There's two things that made the Anakin/Padme relationship unbelievable to almost everyone I've ever had this conversation with.
1.) Padme basically knowing Anakin since -she- was practically an adult and -he- was pre-pubescent was deeply uncomfortable AND makes her falling for him a lot less reasonable to most people.
2.) Anakin was a piece of shit with zero charisma, interpersonal skills, or virtually any qualities that would make a woman want to have sex with him beyond 'maybe good looking depending on your tastes, and powerful Jedi.' We're, I imagine, not supposed to get the impression that these are the specific criteria that Padme looks for in a man.

Everything spirals from there. Even 'I killed the children' and Padme, apparently, being like 'aaaah, it's okay.' There's no sensible explanation for letting that go beyond 'she loves him' and 'she loves him' is entirely predicated on him having love-worthy qualities that we have NEVER seen.


It's hard to fix any singular problem or set of problems in the PT, because all of the problems are interlinked. For example; in order to encounter the 'I murder babies' problem with the Tuskans, we need to create the problem of civilized, ostensibly 'good' Jedi choosing not only to ignore slavery on not-Arrakis, but to specifically ignore the fact that their own Jedi apprentice's MOM is a slave and he's extremely aware of it. AND you have to create the problem that Anakin himself never did anything about it either. Like, it's just this compounding problem of every single person involved being a lunatic.

I remember watching the PT with my ex, and right after we saw RotS together, the first thing I said to her walking out was: "That's an entire trilogy about how Star Wars doesn't have a single reasonable adult in it. The only way Anakin turns to Darth Vader is because George Lucas and every single character in the franchise WANTS him to." I stand by that to this day.


Anyway, back to my point; you can fix a lot of the clunky relationship stuff by A) not having Padme and Anakin meet while Anakin is a literal small child, and B) having Anakin actually be kind, charming, attentive, and loyal to Padme in ways that do not read as incredibly creepy, self-serving, and possessive. Boom. Done. Fixed.

I don't even think the Obi-Wan/Padme connection is necessary. Scratch that.. I actively hate the implication. It's trite.
Padme should simply grow increasingly concerned with Anakin's frustrations with the Jedi Order's inaction or inability to reform the system. He should get angrier and say more -lightly- unhinged things ("the galaxy just needs a strong leader!"). We should lead up to him murdering someone and confessing it to Padme (Tuskans or whomever you want - probably still connected with his mom). But in this version, Padme should turn him in to Obi-Wan; someone who is clearly a best friend and confident to both Anakin and Padme.
But, of course, Obi-Wan cannot just offer quiet counsel and let it slide that Anakin has murdered people in rage. That IS the Dark Side. He needs to arrest Anakin. And when he comes for him, Anakin feels betrayed by Padme and that completes his turn - now knowing that even his wife and his best friend won't stand up for him and won't help him make the galaxy great again, and all that.

Bonus, you can work in that the reason Leia has -some- memories of her mother is because she didn't die of 'I so sad.' Anakin actively hunts for her after his turn, and eventually is successful in having her transport ship destroyed (or whatever). Leia survives with limited memories of her sad mother.
Or, I mean, the mother she remembers could just be Breha Organa. Not sure why that doesn't seem to jive with people even now.

Every time I think of something I don't like about SW - this is what I end up doing. Just way too many words ruminating on how it could have been done. You'd think I'd get over it by now.

 

[Ru1977]

predicated on him having love-worthy qualities that we have NEVER seen.

Extremely true. Them falling in love, or her with him at least, is abrupt as hell. It made me wonder if Lucas remembered ever being in love at all.

not having Padme and Anakin meet while Anakin is a literal small child

Big reason to age him up.

having Anakin actually be kind, charming, attentive, and loyal to Padme in ways that do not read as incredibly creepy, self-serving, and possessive. Boom. Done. Fixed.

That aspect is fixed, yes, but I still... you still gotta get to Vader somehow.

I don't even think the Obi-Wan/Padme connection is necessary. Scratch that.. I actively hate the implication. It's trite.

I totally get that. And you're probably right, but connecting it to Vader, he is really fixated on his anger with Obi-Wan. He wallows in Kenobi's failures like it's bacta.

But, of course, Obi-Wan cannot just offer quiet counsel and let it slide that Anakin has murdered people in rage. That IS the Dark Side. He needs to arrest Anakin. And when he comes for him, Anakin feels betrayed by Padme and that completes his turn - now knowing that even his wife and his best friend won't stand up for him and won't help him make the galaxy great again, and all that.

Okay, yeah, this is all great. I'm all for driving more of a wedge between him and the Jedi, with Obi-Wan being the face of that, and having Palpatine firmly as the person he feels he can trust the most.

Bonus, you can work in that the reason Leia has -some- memories of her mother is because she didn't die of 'I so sad.' Anakin actively hunts for her after his turn, and eventually is successful in having her transport ship destroyed

I feel like I read something recently, with all the ROTS anniversary stuff coming out, about Lucas originally had a plan to not have Padme die at the end, and go into hiding with TV's Jimmy Smitts. I still like that more than fatal sad, even if depression is what ultimately leads to her death somehow.

 

[Damien]

Big reason to age him up.

It's definitely a compelling reason. Although we could probably argue that Anakin being, 20 or whatever, and Padme being 28 is way less of a problem than Anakin being 10 and Padme being 18. So we could probably sit around and write compelling reasons to keep them somewhat apart in age as well. The big thing would be to not have them meet when he's a child and she's an adult (or near to). It's just weird.

That aspect is fixed, yes, but I still... you still gotta get to Vader somehow.

Absolutely. Vader, even in the OT, is a nuanced character. I think it's intellectually lazy to write bad guys as if they exist in a vacuum of badness where they only spend their time kicking puppies and drinking Logan Paul's energy drink.
I think it's perfectly possible, even not hard at all, to write Anakin as having really good qualities and still becoming Vader. Because most bad people in real life aren't JUST bad. Showing his relationship with Padme as healthy, loving, and reciprocal will make it hit that much harder when he falls despite her support, and ultimately she feels she has no choice but to betray him. Maybe even at the end they can have a 'Heat' moment where Padme gives Anakin a signal to run because it's a trap, and he leaves thinking the Jedi have essentially kidnapped her and his unborn child.

There's a lot of directions to take it where Anakin turns. I don't think his turn to the dark side even -should- be predicated on jealousy over Padme or anything like that. Anger over the injustices he sees around him, anger at being overlooked by his peers and betters, despair over not being able to fix the way things are -- all becoming a sense of entitlement that, had he all the power, he could FIX everything. Ultimately, I think that was what George was trying to get at anyway. He just muddied it all up because of some random, complete nonsense subplot that came out of nowhere that suggested Anakin thought Padme might bang Obi-Wan. So dumb.

I totally get that. And you're probably right, but connecting it to Vader, he is really fixated on his anger with Obi-Wan. He wallows in Kenobi's failures like it's bacta.

Oh definitely. But we can get there from so many different, more interesting directions that don't rely on Muh Guurrrrl, Bro! After all, Kenobi is both what Anakin wants to be, and what he hates most; Kenobi isn't just one of the most powerful Jedi -- he's one of the most respected. That respect that Anakin craves is Kenobi's everywhere he goes. People defer to him. But what does Kenobi do with that power? Nothing. He doesn't change anything. He doesn't make anything better. To quote Anakin; it's not fair!
Admiration for Kenobi could slowly turn to disgust as Anakin begins to see Kenobi as stagnant - unwilling to see that times are changing. Kenobi is, if Anakin really thinks about it, just as bad as anyone else on the council. WORSE, actually, because Kenobi is out here in the trenches with Anakin. He should know better. He should know what needs to be done. In fact, it's a worse betrayal than that of the council, specifically because Kenobi should know better than the council how things really are out in the black.

And then, when he's starting to tell himself that he's wrong and he can count on Obi-Wan when the time comes.... Obi-Wan shows up to arrest him. The final betrayal.

Etc etc.

Okay, yeah, this is all great. I'm all for driving more of a wedge between him and the Jedi, with Obi-Wan being the face of that, and having Palpatine firmly as the person he feels he can trust the most.

Definitely. Anakin has a huge problem with the Jedi, conceptually. But Obi-Wan really needs to be the face of that. And Palpatine definitely needs to somehow be the shoulder Anakin can cry on. But even that George fucked up, because Anakin went from devout Jedi to 'oh, you're a Sith? Cool cool cool cool....' waaaaay too quickly and unrealistically.

 

[Chooch555]

Forget Star Wars, Andor is the best show ever.

 

[Ru1977]

The big thing would be to not have them meet when he's a child and she's an adult (or near to). It's just weird.

Agreed.

it's perfectly possible, even not hard at all, to write Anakin as having really good qualities and still becoming Vader

I get that.

Maybe even at the end they can have a 'Heat' moment where Padme gives Anakin a signal to run because it's a trap, and he leaves thinking the Jedi have essentially kidnapped her and his unborn child.

Ugh. If you know how much I love Heat, you'll know this is the one I'd go with.

Anger over the injustices he sees around him, anger at being overlooked by his peers and betters, despair over not being able to fix the way things are -- all becoming a sense of entitlement that, had he all the power, he could FIX everything

This is great too, and perfectly on theme.

Ultimately, I think that was what George was trying to get at anyway

Right, like their talk in the grass after surfing giant fur fleas.

 

[PanchaMaestro]

Nuanced villains? Don't be silly. Andor just showed us its best when you keep your Star Wars villains uncomplicated mustache twirlers ....

Spoiler: Spoiler

Sarcasm obviously

 

[docsilence]

Glad I stayed up to watch Andor right after release. I cannot imagine having anything spoiled from this magnificent story. Rebellions are built on hope, but also on sacrifice, and we are lucky to have had the chance to share this story, so full of hope, and rage, and clear-eyed determination.

I don't know how anyone can watch this and not want to go out and change the world.

 

[yojoebro82]

Thinking more on the stuff I would change were I to do my own PT,

My abridged outline because I have to go to work:

Practical effects

Personality for the Jedi

Make better use of Liam Neeson, Christopher Lee and Darth Maul.

Speak of Yoda, talk up Yoda, but don't show Yoda.

Shore up some of the story elements/dialogue that creates plot holes in the OT.

Write a believable love story for Anakin and Padme (because I don't know how creeping on her in the opening act, spouting cringe dialogue and telling her how he killed the women and the children sand people in the second act leads to a wedding in the third act. Is that what beautiful, successful women are looking for? Really? None of those things worked for me in my 20s.)

 

[Ru1977]

I don't know how anyone can watch this and not want to go out and change the world.

Exactly. That is exactly how I felt.

Spoiler

I'm so glad they revisited Nemik's manifesto before the end too.
And yeah, they butted right up against the beginning of Rogue One, but they left enough strands to have me wanting more. STILL want a 'Mon during the OT' show, which would also have to follow Kleya and Bix, along with some new villains and rebels as well. They REALLY did a great job of spotlighting Kleya, but all three of those characters were captivating, and without taking too much attention from the title character.

 

[Ru1977]

Thinking more on the finale of Andor, and series as a whole...

Spoiler

I don't really NEED a follow up or spinoff. I'd really like it, if it followed the same tone and style, but obviously we know where Mon ends up. And with Bix, I realized she and the baby... it's comes across as bittersweet since Cassian isn't coming, but what it's really about is showing what he died protecting. Sure, he helped save countless lives ensuring the DS plans got to the Rebels, but having two of those lives be those characters is such a fantastic ending for him.
Kreya is another one I'd love to see more of, but maybe it isn't necessary at all. One way or another, she has to find a new way to live and it's entirely her choice. She's done as a spy/operative in that manner. She could serve the rebellion, she could ultimately retire like Bix, but whatever it is, it's up to her and that's really satisfying. I'm so glad they spend some time showing her history.

 

[Revox]

Kleya is the GOAT, just incredible stuff. I was in a perpetual sense of dread wondering if she'd make it off Coruscant or not, I was horrified when Luthen passed on *that* info to her knowing how everyone who touches it ends up.

Also the bit in the elevator with ET's grandma or whoever was hilarious.

As for the show overall, I adored it. Which is some going considering my complete bewilderment and lack of interest when it was first announced all those years ago. The ending was bittersweet yet not quite as bitter as expected. Oddly enough, I find myself in the strange position of finding Ben Bratt as a better Bail than Jimmy Smits, heretical though it feels to say.

To Cassian. And Mon. And Vel. And Kleya. And Wilmon. And Bix. And Lonni. And Cinta. And Nemik. And Brasso. And Melchie. And K. And Bee. And Luthen. Heroes all.

Finally, while many of us expected Dedra to

Spoiler

end up working on the Death Star,

how it panned out was some incredible 'from a certain point of view' shit, oh my.

Spoiler

Maybe she'll get a pardon once the New Republic takes over and they see her file says she was imprisoned for being a rebel spy who leaked the existence of the Death Star to the rebellion, hah.

 

[Ru1977]

I was in a perpetual sense of dread wondering if she'd make it off Coruscant or not

SAME! They did such a wonderful job with that.

Spoiler

I was worried she wasn't planning to leave the hospital at all. but man, well done writers.

Also the bit in the elevator with ET's grandma or whoever was hilarious

Agreed, and well described.

The ending was bittersweet yet not quite as bitter as expected

Definitely. It was... kinda perfect really.

I find myself in the strange position of finding Ben Bratt as a better Bail than Jimmy Smits, heretical though it feels to say.

I don't disagree actually.

'from a certain point of view'

Yes, that was 'funny'. And your idea for afterward... will probably be a comic, heh.

 

[docsilence]

I also liked Bratt better as Organa, but honestly I think he was given better material to work with. Both actors are wonderful performers, but if you asked me who I'd want as an action figure right now...

I love how it did not redeem many of the villains people thought might have a redemption or an ending that tied into the films, but it HUMANIZED every villain. They were still monsters, but they were real, living, breathing people making terrible choices. Sometimes it's too late for regret, a lesson we deeply need right now.

Spoiler

That final Partagaz scene is going to stick with me forever. Just elegantly done. So much confusion, shame, fear, and finally a bit of dignity.