Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

[Ru1977]

To be fair, I'm a little different from Ace in this. I haven't written off Doomsday as 'definitely bad' or anything like that. I don't even think we -can- because we don't know enough concerning what it's even about.

Fair.

I just think bringing these characters/actors back is cynical, both on the part of the studio and on the part of the consumers that demanded it. That will remain true even if it's the best movie Marvel has ever made.

I suppose... I guess I'm the kind of fan who doesn't get concerned about that because I just want as many of the characters they've introduced, and more, in Secret Wars. I want Steve, and Tony, and Natasha. So for me, if they make the plot work, give me some great character moments and interactions, I'm taking the ride. It's all popcorn.

That doesn't mean it can't be fun or exciting. I've liked... definitely more than half of the MCU. Probably closer to 75%? That's not a bad ratio considering how much of it there is.

Yeah, I agree. And as much as I've enjoyed, there's some I really haven't, and some I will of course admit wasn't great despite me getting something out of it anyway.

It's definitely not high cinema most of the time, whatever that might mean to you, but as comic book popcorn stuff I can get a lot of enjoyment from it.

Exactly. Though I appreciate when they get me to feel some emotion beyond "oh wow, neat".

If Doomsday is good, I'll be happy to watch it. If we get more details and it sounds like total ass, I'll just sit this one out and not be too worried about it. But I'm not of that opinion yet because, again, we don't really even know anything about this movie yet.

And again, fair.

My biggest concern is that I love Marvel and I want Marvel to keep having movies (and shows) that I enjoy watching. And I don't want them to feel like they can never move forward because fans won't let them.

And I get that, totally. I guess my hope is maybe this and Secret Wars will finally break them free of that. Have a firmer baton handing.*

It’s not about holding the material sacred.

The example I used with my wife is “like say in the next The Batman movie, he suddenly has this pet hamster, and he just loves the fucking hamster so much and it dictates all of his motivations, and also for some dumbass reason the Joker, the Penguin, and Scarlett Johansson want to kidnap the hamster. Even though ‘Batman’s Pet Hamster’ is not a thing and Batman is not now nor never has been known as a guy who keeps a pet hamster as a core part of his character.”

But... in that story it is a thing. That's the story they want to tell. Now he has a hamster and he loves it. Come on, be happy for Bruce goddamnit. He kept that plant alive for an entire year and moved up to hamster level.

Ha ha that’s exactly the kind of ouroboros self-fellating I expect from this franchise.

Heh, fair enough.

It’s also like in that Dracula 2000 movie when they were all “surprise! Dracula was Judas from the Bible all along!”
And that was fucking awful too.

Well sure, but that was the story they wanted to tell. To them, that was a compelling twist.

*

 

[Damien]

Exactly. Though I appreciate when they get me to feel some emotion beyond "oh wow, neat".

I am a very easy target, to be honest. Even if a fairly vapid movie, you can throw in a scene or a line that will still hit me. Even Hugh Jackman talking about the dead X-Men in DP/Wolvie got me and that movie is utterly ridiculous for 95% of its runtime. But I'm also on record - I love bad movies. All the time. I like what I like and I definitely never pretend that makes them -good-. Just good to me, and why would I care about anything else?

 

[Ru1977]

I am a very easy target, to be honest.

heh.... well me too. I don't get absorbed into every movie I watch, but I tend to get invested a lot and certain things will choke me up for sure.

Even Hugh Jackman talking about the dead X-Men in DP/Wolvie got me and that movie is utterly ridiculous for 95% of its runtime.

Right, I am apparently one of the few who is immune to Marvel quips yanking me out of emotional moments. Maybe I'm conditioned by the emotional rollercoaster I rode with my parents heh.

But I'm also on record - I love bad movies. All the time. I like what I like and I definitely never pretend that makes them -good-. Just good to me, and why would I care about anything else?

I can't think of a reason; well put.

 

[DarthDre758]

ouroboros self-fellating I expect

That was my nickname in college.

 

[Ru1977]

If they expected it, then they saw you coming.

 

[AceofKnaves]

Well sure, but that was the story they wanted to tell. To them, that was a compelling twist.

To them.

Just because “they” wanted to tell the story that way, doesn’t mean it’s immune to criticism. My point is that it’s an added element that is not an integral part of any previous portrayal of the character/story, and in the case of the “family/kids” stuff it is an obvious manipulative tactic that has not been “earned” through previous storytelling.

It’s fine to like or not like things, but I’m not just coming from a place of “I don’t like this”. I am, however, coming from a place where I am actually, biologically incapable of “turning off my brain and enjoying a popcorn movie”. I’m not wired like that: I’m gonna think deep about any movie, and if I’m not totally absorbed (and even if I am) I’m gonna have questions about theme, point of view, “voice”, the whole “why are they telling this story in this particular way?” And I don’t know whether or not I will enjoy the film: while I find the MCU thematically gross in aggregate, I do enjoy a lot of the parts. And I have really enjoyed a lot of the post-Endgame stuff, specifically. But “add a kid!” is, in my opinion, a weak populist trope, bespeaking lack of original ideas and/or pandering to cultural nostalgia and “Americana”.
And I hate that shit.

 

[Ru1977]

it is an obvious manipulative tactic that has not been “earned” through previous storytelling.

I mean, I guess... Are you saying previous movies should have made a bigger deal about Tony Stark having baby pangs? I dunno, I mean... like I just watched a Lethal Weapon and a half so that's kinda fresh in my mind, but does Lethal Weapon 2 suck because they have an entire scene about a pen yet part 1 never mentioned this pen? I know this is a totally frivolous example, but my point is... characters figure things out about themselves along the way, and Tony's dad-issues getting sorted out by figuring out how to be the dad he'd always wanted, and THEN meeting his dad shortly before his own birth occurred and gaining more perspective... I don't see what's unearned about that. You can earn things for the story during the current story.

Beyond that, your approach to movies, even popcorn movies, is so different from mine. And I say that not as some "you're an alien" comment or something, but just... we have very different approaches and things we're looking for, so I'm not completely sure how to tackle the discussion further.

 

[AceofKnaves]

you're an alien

Oh I am, though.
I have an incredibly difficult time relating to other humans, even worse when it’s a group-think situation.

You can earn things for the story during the current story.

You can . . . but I didn’t buy it. “During Endgame” is like “in the very last chapter of the book”, like if in The Shining, in the very last chapter, Jack’s motivation completely shifted to be about something totally outside the story as it was . . . and then the entire narrative also shifted to say “this is the most important stuff and defines this character and we are making the whole story about this new thing.”

I get it, though: when I love something, I get tempted to “backfill” meaning into some place in the story where that meaning wasn’t.

 

[AceofKnaves]

a bigger deal about Tony Stark having baby pangs?

Crap, forgot this part.
No. I’m not saying that. I’m saying that “here, add a child” in general is a tired, lazy trope well beyond just the MCU. It’s the easiest “let’s force you to empathize with this character” trick in the book. Adding it in Endgame shows me that perhaps the writers realized what a piece-of-shit character Tony wound up being, and knew they had to staple on some basic-bitch good-guy signaling.

 

[Ru1977]

I get that perspective but I also have never seen the MCU as one, long, continuous, utterly connected, cohesive, single plot either. In my mind, Endgame wasn't the final chapter of a book but the second half of a story with a bunch of characters from other stories.

 

[Ru1977]

Crap, forgot this part.
No. I’m not saying that. I’m saying that “here, add a child” in general is a tired, lazy trope well beyond just the MCU. It’s the easiest “let’s force you to empathize with this character” trick in the book. Adding it in Endgame shows me that perhaps the writers realized what a piece-of-shit character Tony wound up being, and knew they had to staple on some basic-bitch good-guy signaling.

Maybe, sure. I always saw it was a reason to make him hesitate to go on the adventure in the first place, but also for some reason (that I don't know if Feige etc even knew the answer to) also to maintain that five year time-jump.

 

[Damien]

heh.... well me too. I don't get absorbed into every movie I watch, but I tend to get invested a lot and certain things will choke me up for sure.

I can get a little choked up at a strongly-worded commercial, so don't mind me.

Right, I am apparently one of the few who is immune to Marvel quips yanking me out of emotional moments. Maybe I'm conditioned by the emotional rollercoaster I rode with my parents heh.

I think it's a 50/50 for me. Sometimes it's just, to me, weirdly obvious that the quip is there specifically to deflate the moment and keep it popcorny and not 'thinky.' If it's too obvious then it will pull me out of the storytelling enough to be annoying. Or if it just seems wildly inappropriate to be said by a character that otherwise I wouldn't think of as being inappropriate like that.
Like, I can handle an emotion-deflating comment from Deadpool easier than I can from Captain America. Two characters ribbing each other in an otherwise emotional scene makes more sense from Sam and Bucky than it would for Thor and Captain Marvel.

 

[AceofKnaves]

Ultimately, I just didn’t buy what they were selling, so it’s hard for me to see a “plan” so much as dodging and pandering to get to that $1billion. I mean they spent the entirety of Endgame that wasn’t “dark battle against muddy CGI” was a “greatest hits” rounding of the bases of the Infinity Saga, complete with the literal self-fellating ouroboros of time travel within its own films. That must have been awesome if you were “in”, but it all just felt so safe and manipulative to me. “Oh I’ve suddenly got a kid” isn’t a bold narrative choice: it’s a self-justifying retreat from bold choices.

 

[fac]

My point is that it’s an added element that is not an integral part of any previous portrayal of the character/story, and in the case of the “family/kids” stuff it is an obvious manipulative tactic that has not been “earned” through previous storytelling.

I disagree about Steve - being with Peggy was taken away from him, and how important she was to him is told to the audience when she was the first thing he thinks about when he wakes up in the future - "I had a date". This is why I accepted his decision to, when he had chance, live the life he wanted that had been taken from him.

Absolutely no reason to think that the Steve Rogers who would rather be with Peggy than be Captain America forever wouldn't also want a family.

I also think you don't show the baby in that teaser unless the baby is important, and given the only time we have seen Doom is him looking at the child of another super-powered couple, well... probably going to be a plot point.

 

[Damien]

Personally, I think the only character I cannot accept as 'retiring' is Punisher. I was FUCKING LIVID when they pulled that shit on his Netflix show where he basically killed all the bad guys off screen between seasons and then retired. BULLSHIT.