Ru1977
The Irishman
They did a better job of restraining him than Tony, Peter, and half the GOTG
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Continuing my MCU rewatch
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Fletch
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Avengers!!! I can't oversell what a big deal this was at the time. Sure, Full Moon had a cinematic universe crossover back in 1993, but who here has seen any of that? Characters crossing over and teaming up is part of the charm of Marvel Comics, and seeing it handled that way on the big screen did not disappoint.
This movie was really great. I don't know what Joss Whedon's personal background is, but the man really got what Marvel team-up comics were all about. It was fun where it wanted to be fun, but let the sad moments be sad. The characterizations were 100% true. Tony hacking the computer while Steve did a more hands-on investigation, fer instance. Natasha just lying to Bruce about being unarmed and alone in Calcutta and Bruce's very brief look of regret when he turns into the Hulk for the first time next to her. So good.
- I love that Natasha is absolutely terrified of the Hulk. It's not to her detriment since she's so badass everywhere else, but it gives a unique dynamic between them because nobody else seems to care.
- Speaking of Black Widow, I thought it was cool that she was able to play Loki like she did, but boy did I not follow the logic. Hiddleston absolutely destroys that scene ("mewling quim" Hah!) and just as you're riding the high of that performance, there's a total left turn that shows Natasha was just stringing him along. But there's a large gulf between "you brought the monster" and "oh, your plan involves Banner." I wish the dots were connected more clearly for me. I'm not a super-spy, but that felt like a real leap.
- I've said it before, but I'm not a fan of Mark Ruffalo as Banner. I don't really care how difficult Edward Norton was to work with, his Banner was so much better. And Ruffalo never improves. To this day I watch scenes he's in for, like, Infinity War or She-Hulk and imagine what it'd be like if Norton were doing it.
- Aside from that recast, I think Cobie Smulders' Maria Hill is the only new character we get in this movie? She's fine. I didn't know the actress OR the character before this movie, and she didn't have any strong performances that inspired me. No complaints, but no standing applause moments. Meanwhile, Jeremy Renner's Hawkeye is so cartoonishly awesome in this movie. I love it. The little carousel arrowhead changer is brilliant and I was sad to see it was never used again. It's the only reason to use arrows.
- I'm technically glad to see Pepper Potts here, because I like that the main characters brought their supporting casts with them for the big team-up movies. Same with Selvig. I think they made the right choice having Erik be controlled by Loki rather than Jane Foster to avoid the damsel trope, and they at least acknowledged her existence. It's just a shame that it sets a precedent for Jane just never appearing in an Avengers movie. Now that I think of it, Cap and Hulk didn't have any supporting cast here, but I'm not sure where we'd fit any in unless Agent Carter or Thunderbolt Ross appeared as shadowy figures on the council, and I doubt that would've been an improvement.
- Heh. I never noticed Tony's reaction to seeing the tesseract in Coulson's files. Cute.
- I loved the upgrade to Captain America's costume here. While the later evolutions have since grown on me, I thought this was a great middle ground between comic accurate and real world clothing.
- Thor gets an awesome fight versus Iron Man and an awesome fight versus Hulk. Somebody really understood what comic book team-ups were all about. I suspect a hard trick to pull off in movies like this is making sure each character gets an equal amount of cool moments (come see me again for Civil War), and these fights are, like, mini-cosmos versions of that, with each combatant getting a cool move over the other, but having it balance out at the end.
- They did such a seamless job of weaving Coulson into everybody's lives that it seems obvious in hindsight that he was being set up to die. It was quite a shock when I saw it in the theater, though.
- Normally I'm a big fan of hero teams coming together by circumstance rather than by design and just staying together afterward. Like, Banner's here because he's the world's leading gamma ray expert and Thor shows up to get Loki. But they'd been teasing the Avengers Initiative for years, and it just seems weird that they have to say that project was shut down only to have them all just meet up anyways.
- When Tony says "everything special about you came out of a bottle," that's patently untrue. There's an entire movie showing why he's special and solely suited for the super soldier serum. Meanwhile, even Pepper can pilot an Iron Man suit.
- I know the "I'm always angry" line is a fan favorite, but what the eff does it actually mean? I can't follow the logic of it. I get that the Hulk seems more controllable if Banner "lets" him out rather than forced into a change, but what does "always angry" mean to someone who turns into a rage monster when he gets angry? It sounds so insightful but feels so dumb.
- I absolutely hate that all the aliens just fall to the ground Phantom Menace style when the mother ship blows up. It's such a cop out. Maybe at that point show that the National Guard (which we've already seen in action at this point) is now able to handle what remains while the Avengers go handle Loki. It's such a lame shortcut. Come to think of it, the deactivation bit makes the Council out to be the heroes, since it was there nuke that saves the day. I hate it even more now.
- I just realized that every Avenger had a solo scene with Loki. That's neat. Sure Cap's was getting his ass beat and Hawkeye was being under his mind control the entire movie, but it counts. I'm not sure I would've even had that on my "must have" list if I were writing this movie.
This movie was really great. I don't know what Joss Whedon's personal background is, but the man really got what Marvel team-up comics were all about. It was fun where it wanted to be fun, but let the sad moments be sad. The characterizations were 100% true. Tony hacking the computer while Steve did a more hands-on investigation, fer instance. Natasha just lying to Bruce about being unarmed and alone in Calcutta and Bruce's very brief look of regret when he turns into the Hulk for the first time next to her. So good.
yojoebro82
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This movie is iconic. This was an ambitious premise to begin with: Introduce the audience to the Big Three of the Avengers via their own individual origin films, then culminate in a big team up movie. Any minor flaws this movie may have are irrelevant because what it sets out to do is accomplished and then some. They stuck the landing and it changed the way Hollywood works.
This line and Cap's "You're not the one to make the sacrifice play" both pay off when the Infinity Saga ends. Cap and Tony are both proven wrong here. Obviously Tony's wrong about Cap, but Tony ultimately DOES make the sacrifice play to put a stop to Thanos.
I THINK the inference here is that Banner is always angry and the Hulk would always be running amuck if not for Banner's sheer force of will keeping Hulk in check at all times. When Banner does need Hulk, he just lets go. That's my take away. I'm luke warm on Ruffalo Banner as well.
Yep, Whedon nailed this one. What kind of person is he IRL, I really don't care, just like anyone in Hollywood, I just need them to entertain and do the job well. I'm not going to lunch with him.
This movie is always going to be one of the great comic movies of all time.
Ru1977
The Irishman
You're the one, heh heh.
Yeah, the formation was really clunky. If you take into account Fury's scene in Iron Man, Stark's scene in Incredible Hulk, Selvig's credit scene on Thor, then the set up on this movie and their formation... not smooth. And it's stuff like that I think of when people complain about it seeming like they aren't super well planned out anymore... they never truly were. And we enjoyed them anyway.
Sure, but... Tony is also a dick. And under the influence of Loki's stick.
I took it to mean he always had the anger under the surface, ready to go essentially, and could change into Hulk at will. Changing back is obviously trickier, but they figured that out by Age of Ultron. It also now feels like a step toward what he was in Endgame, but obviously that wasn't planned at all. Just like him saying "I don't always get what I want" in Avengers when gently rocking the bassinet seemed to set up the "well, I can't have babies either" discussion with Natasha in AOU.
Agreed. Having them blow up the ship and close the hole, thus cutting off reinforcements, then a quick five second shot of the National guard and fighter jets coming in to help clean up would have sufficed. We know they can defeat them easily, we saw the hard part, no need to Phantom Menace them at all.
I don't think I ever even took notice of that myself.
Ru1977
The Irishman
Completely true. it's not perfect, the proceeding movies aren't perfect, they don't perfectly line up, but it works and it's actually still kinda amazing to me that it works.
Tony also made the sacrifice play in Avengers when he Dr. Strangelove's the missile through the portal. Cap even points out it's a one way ticket. Tony doesn't literally sacrifice himself, but he was certainly ready to do so, and it messed him up pretty severely for an entire movie afterward.
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I genuinely dislike Norton as Banner. I prefer Ruffalo, but I would never argue that Ruffalo is a -good- Banner. He's just the one we have that isn't Norton, so I'm okay with it by default. Like Pepper Potts. I actively dislike Paltrow as a person and want nothing but failure for her. She didn't do a -bad- job as Pepper. But I also don't think she did a good job. And given my dislike for her, I'd really have preferred almost anyone else in that role.
I'd actually argue that Ruffalo and Paltrow are two actors this franchise could have replaced and made the movies -better-, whereas overall I think the MCU really nails casting.
I thought that was the point, though. We, as the audience, know that Cap is more than the serum, but Tony either really doesn't understand that yet, or is choosing to ignore it for the sake of saying something cruel to get under Cap's skin. One could even take it as projecting, since Tony knows without the suit he'll get wrecked. Or he really doesn't view things in their totality at this point; Cap is important to the team because he punches good, which came from a serum, but Tony is important to the team because he's a mega-genius and was born that way. Therefore, Tony feels superior to Cap because his talents are 'god-given' where (his view of) Steve's talents came from the thing that Tony himself is better at - science.
Absolutely feel free to disagree, of course, but I actually thought this exchange might have been one of the most nuanced disagreements in the entire phase. Haha.
I kind of took it in the way that people who deal with rage in real life might mean it; I have come to understand that I -can't- not be angry, I just have to learn to exist in my anger without letting it control me. I need to let it be in the background sometimes instead of letting it always control my actions.
If you haven't struggled with rage in real life, maybe that's a theory that just blows by, but it's actually pretty important. That's my guess at where they got the idea, at least. And with Hulk it does make some sense - recognizing that he's always angry allows him to exist beside that anger instead of dwelling in it - which in turn could allow him to choose when the anger gets to be at the front of his mind? If that makes any sense - I might be rambling.
I agree with a lot of what you've said about this film, but I agree with this THE MOST.
My only complaint about this film you didn't touch on, I think, is the Whedonification of Marvel. I feel like this is the movie where characters started just getting way too quippy. I haven't watched in a while so maybe that's not entirely accurate, but I do remember blaming this movie for years and years now that 'every character is now Spider-Man.' Ya' know?
Fletch
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I hear what everyone is saying about Banner's anger, but it still feels disconnected as Banner is the one person who can't control his anger. That's his point. He's that "exposed nerve" that doesn't get to not act on it. Having said that, I see now how it can resonate with people and become more than just a "sounds cool" line.
And I don't find this movie overly quippy. Tony, certainly (and almost annoyingly), but Steve's humor, fer instance, comes from his man out of time behavior (I wouldn't consider "it seems to run on some form of electricity" to be a quip, but it's still funny.) More importantly, this was back when movies were allowed to be sad. No moment of drama was undercut but some punchline immediately afterward. It was a brave time.
I'd thought It interesting that they let Tony have another character arc here, making the sacrifice play nobody else thought he would, but watching it again emphasizes how ready he was to do it. There was no reluctance or inner debate. I guess the point of the lab argument scene was to show how everybody was wrong about everybody else. I guess they all secretly got some character arcs as they learned the truth about each other. Pretty subtle if true.
And I don't find this movie overly quippy. Tony, certainly (and almost annoyingly), but Steve's humor, fer instance, comes from his man out of time behavior (I wouldn't consider "it seems to run on some form of electricity" to be a quip, but it's still funny.) More importantly, this was back when movies were allowed to be sad. No moment of drama was undercut but some punchline immediately afterward. It was a brave time.
I'd thought It interesting that they let Tony have another character arc here, making the sacrifice play nobody else thought he would, but watching it again emphasizes how ready he was to do it. There was no reluctance or inner debate. I guess the point of the lab argument scene was to show how everybody was wrong about everybody else. I guess they all secretly got some character arcs as they learned the truth about each other. Pretty subtle if true.
Ru1977
The Irishman
Right, they didn't get each other and had no business being a team... until they did.
PanchaMaestro
Studious
Giants in Norse Mythology aren't that different from the Titans in Greek myth and the Asura in Hindi myth. They really aren't THAT different from the gods themselves. Sometimes they are physically "larger" than the gods other times not really. More commonly they are representations of chaos with whom the gods battle to give order to the universe.
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Not that it really matters to how Marvel does things, but I don't think this is accurate. In the original sources, they're basically just a different family of gods and we're never given any physical distinction between any of the 'types' of gods. We barely have physical descriptions for the gods -in general-. It's almost more accurate to say it's like 'Jotnar = Capulets, Aesir = Montagues.' But even that implies more direct contention between the groups than seems to exist.
PanchaMaestro
Studious
Yes. In most these myths; Giants, Titans & Asura are just a different; earlier family of gods. In some stories their "wildness" or "chaoticness" seems to suggest they are large but that probably just means they are mighty and "uncultured". They are the wildmen to the gods. I don't think their "largeness" is all that literal. The tellers of these ancient stories weren't creating a coherent universe. There's no Marvel Handbook of the Mythical Universe that says Hercules can bench press 40 tons but Hades can only benchpress 25. The stories suit the teller in the time they were telling them. So I think there may be the occassional huge Giant but that is more that particular character in the story; a unique trait like Thor is strong and Aphrodite is beautiful.
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It's definitely true of the Titans (and Asura - which I'm more than willing to admit I know less about) that they're seen as an earlier, wilder form of god. I think Jotnar get lumped into that because it 'seems to fit the overall narrative of myths.' But it's not necessarily true. Specifically in size - as I don't think I'm familiar with any direct source that claims the Jotnar were large in any way, or even really chaotic. They were descended from a different primordial god than the Aesir/Vanir (Ymir and Buri, respectively). But even though we do know Ymir is older than Buri, we don't even get a clear idea if the Jotnar are older than the Aesir.
In every respect I can think of from the sources we have, the Jotnar and Aesir/Vanir are just treated as different clans/kin-groups that are otherwise identical to each other. And that does fit culturally with people that might look identical to us, but consider themselves very very different from even people living a three hour boatride down the river from themselves.
But also.. Loki turned into a horse and gave birth to a baby horse with eight legs. He also fathered a giant snake, a giant wolf, and a handful of gods. So like... Norse myth is so fucking weird and I'd give a lot to be able to go back in time and have the capacity to understand Old Norse to the point where I could figure out what in the goddamn sweet hell any of these people are smoking to be talking about this stuff.
Definitely the hardest thing about trying to study Norse myth (and Greek as well, really) is exactly what you're describing: People want a Marvel Handbook. They want 'the encyclopedia of Norse Mythology.' And even though it's actually not that simple, there are less scrupulous people more than willing to write those things for them to make money. Which has given us such a flood of misinformation that tracing back where X or Y even came from and if it's in any actual source has become almost a full time job for some people.
Fletch
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Iron Man 3
They tried to wrap up Tony's story at the end of his trilogy, showing him at peace with his choices, getting the arc reactor taken out of his chest, blowing up all his armor and moving on. Sadly, he then goes on to just being back in his armor for Avengers 2, which is kind of weird.
There's a Youtuber I used to follow called Nando v Movies who pitched an alternate watch order for Marvel Phase 2 that included having Age of Ultron *before* Iron Man 3. It doesn't work exactly for a lot of reasons, but there's a strong argument for that placement in that it lets him be unapologetically armored up in Age of Ultron, then blow up all his suits in Iron Man 3, before being forced back into the suit by Civil War.
- Why is it so hard for them to start a story in linear time? We start with a shot of all of Tony's armors blowing up, then flash back into a flashback. I'm not too mad about it, because it was fun seeing Ho Yinsen again, and seeing before-and-after Killian was important. It only stands out because it's used so poorly everywhere else.
- I like that we're so used to Stark that we assume he's being a dick by just leaving a note and walking out after his one-night-stand, but she's already up and working and we later learn that he was solving her problem for her. I for sure didn't pick up on that the first time thru. I'd even thought it a cop-out that he just fixes Pepper off-screen later on. But here it is, and later explicitly said, that he'd basically solved the problem while drunk. With a box of scraps.
- First time catching the early foreshadowing of the whole Mandarin scheme. The explosions at military bases are *because* he's testing on wounded veterans. Like with the "anti fake-China" rant about Mann's theater, there's an accidental explosion of a soldier at an Army base, and they have to come up with a statement about why they intentionally blew it up. This realization goes a long way to getting me fully on board with the Mandarin plot twist.
- We're now at the part where they're really pushing my limit on armor accessibility. I loved it when he'd perfected the robot arms to take the suit off in Avengers, and even having an unfolding suit deploy to him like a rocket. Having each suit just kind of unzip for him or have each little part woosh around on its own jets does lead to a fun conclusion, so I guess I can't be too mad. That's it, though. If they ever just have appearing and disappearing helmets or infinitely expanding nanotech suits that grow on him, I'm done.
- I like PTSD Tony. His cocky bastard schtick was wearing really thin. Now we have a new character trait to overcome.
- This movie did the impossible by creating a completely un-annoying kid sidekick. I'm not sure how they pulled it off, but I loved every scene Harley was in. Maybe he should've been Ironheart. Similarly, it's been a while since I've liked Pepper this much. I guess Tony being an ass-hat has finally caught up to her harpy shrieks. Who wouldn't be mad at being romanced by your significant other, but remotely while he's doing other things in the basement?
- Does anybody else remember a rumor that Stephani Szostak was going to be introduced here as Janet Van Dyne? Not sure why that was a thing, but I remember being disappointed when she turned out to just be an extremis thug.
- I'm of two minds about the middle part of the movie. On the one hand, I like him as The Engineer, cobbling together weapons from the hardware store to invade an armed compound. It gives us something new and still plays to Tony's strengths. On the other, we came to see Iron Man. Be effing Iron Man! Also, where'd he get the money to buy that hardware?
- Oh man was the Mandarin character awesome. He was just so frightening. I was so disappointed when he was revealed to be a sham. I've since grown to understand the point of the character in this movie and don't resent him so much now. But I still can't stand the harsh tonal shift in the reveal. He's so over the top comedic as Trevor, that it just stops the movie.
- Somehow, I just this time caught the significance of having to choose to save the president or choose to save Pepper, and only one suit of armor. Maybe it's because they didn't actually save the president that it didn't register with me before. Still, the remote control armor was foreshadowed really well at the beginning, and I totally fell for the armor getting hit by the truck before the reveal. I think they could've sold this a little better by not having them take place at such wildly different times. It doesn't feel like they had to pick when the oil rig scene takes place later that night.
- The finale is great. I loved Tony going from armor to armor as Killian cut his way through them, and if I have to accept unzipping armor to get it, I'm good with that. I also cheered at the point where Stark sent his armor to encase Killian then blew it up. That was such a good solution to the problem. It paid off really well on a couple elements that had been introduced early yet was NOT the obvious solution. Then they walked that back immediately so that Pepper could have her girl boss moment. I hate that so much. Like, Tony blows him up in a clever and quietly earned way, and he's fine. Pepper blows him up in another, less great way and now he's dead. I'm getting mad again just describing it.
- I wish we would've seen the silver centurion armor in better lighting. It's great that they represented such a significant armor look from the comics, but I don't think we got the full effect because it was always in shadow.
- Where the third act fails this movie, though, is that it basically backtracks on the best premise of the movie: the reactive cover-ups to the failed extremis tests. It turns out he actually *does* have a villain plot, and I think it hurts the movie overall. The fact that I liked the finale on the oil rig hurts a little, because it proves them right. We DO need a big flashy finale even if it's to the detriment of the story. I'd read that the initial idea was for Maya to be the main villain, but they didn't think they'd sell enough toys of a girl. If I had to guess, I'd say that her story would've ended with her being just an amoral researcher and not actually have a plot to world domination.
They tried to wrap up Tony's story at the end of his trilogy, showing him at peace with his choices, getting the arc reactor taken out of his chest, blowing up all his armor and moving on. Sadly, he then goes on to just being back in his armor for Avengers 2, which is kind of weird.
There's a Youtuber I used to follow called Nando v Movies who pitched an alternate watch order for Marvel Phase 2 that included having Age of Ultron *before* Iron Man 3. It doesn't work exactly for a lot of reasons, but there's a strong argument for that placement in that it lets him be unapologetically armored up in Age of Ultron, then blow up all his suits in Iron Man 3, before being forced back into the suit by Civil War.
Ru1977
The Irishman
I do remember that, yeah. And all the Extremis people are named from actual comic characters, which means we won't see those characters suited up, for anyone who was a big Firepower fan, heh.
VII will always be my favorite. Lots of great moments with other armors, but VII, especially when it launches to suit him up after Loki tosses him, will always be my favorite.
I did too. There was a point where, had they made figures of each one he wears, even for one second, I would have bought all of them.
I guess so. She defeated Iron Monger as well though.
I see that but I wonder if they really intended to have a trilogy. Whose decision was it to not do Iron Man 4?
Which always reminds me of how Feige wanted to give each character their own trilogy (and was one his way to do just that with Iron Man 2) before Avengers.
Right. And it's not like Age of Ultron was a surprise or something they threw together last minute. They knew it was happening before cameras ever rolled on Iron Man 3. This is another example of how each movie is its own thing and they don't really connect super well, and that's not something that started in Phase 4.
Fletch
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I did see a website listing that dude as Firepower and actually checked the credits. I didn't think to lookup Firepowers real name, though, and assumed somebody was just making shit up on his blog. "Firepower? The giant armor guy with the actual nuke on his back? Idiot."
I didn't mind that one too much, other than the six hours it took for her to actually push the button. Come to think of it, though, we did have a similar clever defeat of the villain using something set up at the beginning (tricking him into flying so high he freezes and falls to the ground) only to have actually survived so Pepper can beat him. It's not terrible, though, because we never see him hit the ground and Tony himself survived an identical scenario. Still funny that it's a thing.