And even DS9 has some you could leave out of a must-see episode guide (and I'm not even meaning an episode guide based on Dominion lore or what have you, but the actual must-see episodes), but I imagine season one and two of TNG could be massively truncated for someone who wants to binge essential episodes.
Yep. Everyone would've been fine with who won and Dany's arc had they laid the groundwork.
Even at the time, I was aware of how short-sighted Benioff and Weiss were. They jettisoned their collective legacy into the sun to do fuck all. Their Star Wars movies didn't happen. Their alternate history Civil War show didn't happen. Instead, they're adapting The Three-Body Problem for Netflix, which relatively no one is watching. They took their 15 minutes of fame and self-immolated in front of the biggest audience in modern history.
So in the sense that they were not caught, yes they got away with it. But another point of the show I thought was that if you had reversed it and the couple had been American spies living in Russia, you'd be cheering their escape.
If you have to watch ONE trek, I would probably recommend DS9 as that one. It may depend on your tastes. People I have tried to get to watch it who say they aren't into Trek, I tell them it's Trek for people not into Trek.
BUT... And I mean they give you a real quick backstory thing in the very beginning, but a lot of Sisko (the stations commander)'s initial character stuff is rooted in one of the bigger TNG plot arcs (the Borg). Then the Defiant, the greatest federation ship ever, is also designed to fight the Borg but goes on to be used for something else.
Exactly. And let's be fair; it only exists because of fan outrage at the show being cancelled before it even found its full audience. Firefly was shot in the kneecap before it aired a single episode, and then blamed for limping. Fans showed tons of support for its return, and all the studio was willing to muster up (not that it's nothing) was a single 2 hour film (including credits). That's not the fault of the actors, Whedon, the film crew, etc etc. Serenity is a fun movie that I enjoy watching and re-watching. But it isn't as good as it should be, and it certainly isn't as good as what we should have gotten instead of a movie.
Doubling back for just a minute because "the studio" in the above paragraph clicked something: Firefly is a 20th Century Fox Television show for FOX. Serenity is a Universal Studios film because Fox wouldn't make it.
I wonder if part of the dis-connective tissue some of you are remarking on is because they had to change things or not use specific things over rights issues. It sounds stupid, and it is, but Whedon's hands could very well have been tied. Or not. But a possible contributing factor.
Inara's red and gold dress from the movie was on display recently and it made me so happy to see it up close.
Y'all are contributing to me wanting to revisit Lost because I'm realizing that I barely remember the end, outside of the entire cast -- SPOILERS.
Final random thought: the marketing for GOT's final season was every living character sitting on the throne. I wonder if instead the image had been the melted throne the audience would have understood the journey we were intended to be on and to focus differently. It's like in a romantic film - if the two leads are not together in the end of the film, you have to tell the audience at the start or the audience will feel betrayed and hate the film, no matter how much they liked it up until the end.
I would agree, there are lots of mediocre stories in there, and maybe supporting the idea that 25 episodes is too much for a season and 175 episodes too much for one show. The first season did have problems. But I feel it is pretty solid in seasons 3 to 6 with some great episodes in there. Still, I would pick and choose if going through it.
Right. There is no series that has 20+ episode seasons where I think all the eps are bangers. Not one. I love DS9 more than any other Trek, and I'd still probably skip at least 4 eps per season.
And even DS9 has some you could leave out of a must-see episode guide (and I'm not even meaning an episode guide based on Dominion lore or what have you, but the actual must-see episodes), but I imagine season one and two of TNG could be massively truncated for someone who wants to binge essential episodes.
Yeah, TNG you can junk almost all of season one and most of season 2. It's cliche, but it really only becomes consistently watchable once Riker gets the beard.
Here's the thing, you could do highlights of any Trek show. And all of them have some real amazing eps in there. But if your SO is only giving you one shot to get them hooked on Trek, I'd do DS9. It's got more bangers per capita than the others.
BUT... And I mean they give you a real quick backstory thing in the very beginning, but a lot of Sisko (the stations commander)'s initial character stuff is rooted in one of the bigger TNG plot arcs (the Borg). Then the Defiant, the greatest federation ship ever, is also designed to fight the Borg but goes on to be used for something else.
So, I'm going to say that backstory DS9 provides is basically all you need. Picard only shows up in the first ep I think, and the Borg never show up in the show. Their existence is as important to Sisko as the Kessel run is to Han Solo. Gives him texture, but you don't need the full story. If DS9 hooks someone, you can go back and get that story later, and in fact it'll probably be a bit better, because coming off TNG you sympathize with Picard and Sisko hating him so much is very offputting initially if you're a Picard fan. Going the other way you get to redeem a guy who your main character in DS9 has valid trauma over.
Compare to O'Brien in TNG. He served in the Cardassian war and it totally traumatizes him, and we *never* see it. But we see several episodes revolving around its fallout and even O'Brien's old commander. You don't actually need the full backstory to get what's going on.
I think some of the TNG episodes that focused on O'Brien and Worf/Klingon intrigue are more necessary backstory to DS9 than Best of Both Worlds, but since Best of Both Worlds is peak TNG no reason not to watch those and the follow-up Family.
Did you feel Stan was the "hero" we were rooting for or did you not feel that anyone was?
Did you think that they had insinuated enough that the spies had been more or less compelled/manipulated/brainwashed into doing their jobs? I felt one aspect was we were supposed to question how much they were forced to do that they disliked under the guise of "for the greater good" - although from the start he was a bit less of a true believer than she was.
A good friend also really was rooting for justice for them and even though she appreciated the show she disliked that the bad guys were the protagonists and that we were supposed to sympathize with them at all, especially the first few seasons. And they do some terrible things to be sure, so I am not saying they were the heroes (I think Stan was by default) but I also did not think of them as villains per se but pawns. Paige ended up being such a great character as well. I still think the scene where she gets off the train was a great, perfect moment and honestly the show could have ended on that scene and I'd have been happy.
Given GRR can't seem to resolve the story either, I would love to get more on the behind the scenes once they got past the books - did they want to wrap it up around the main beats because they didn't want to deviate from the main plan (which I still think was mostly GRR in terms of what went down) or fill in details he was still working out, or was he unable to guide them as to the fates of so many characters? Or did they know they couldn't pull it together either and wanted out as they saw it might not come out well?
I realize I am at odds with the general GoT fan but I kind of felt the earlier seasons meandered too much, too many side stories and side political intrigue with characters that I felt were often more depth than was needed and ended up not being relevant. So the pace in the later seasons I actually preferred. I think the main issue I had with the final season was the White Walkers not wreaking enough havoc for a longer period to help solidify the idea that while the factions were fighting each other they had missed the big threat - I felt they never paid enough of a price for that mistake of not coming together as it resolved itself a bit too easily. Sort of.
The early groundwork was there, but her switch from "tyrant in training" to "total wack-a-loon mad queen" is pretty abrupt. It basically happens all in one scene. It's not bad because she wasn't headed that way, but because that's not how she saw herself. It would have worked for me much more had she taken King's Landing with a lot of losses, and then found out the people there, rather than loving her as a liberator, saw her as just another ruler they despised. Then I think she could convince herself that her most awful impulses, more than being necessary evils, were in fact virtues.
I don't think it needed much more time in the oven, but the dough was not cooked all the way through.
- did they want to wrap it up around the main beats because they didn't want to deviate from the main plan (which I still think was mostly GRR in terms of what went down)
I agree. I think they knew the basic path, but also probably wanted out and plowed through to the end as quickly as they could. That may have also been an HBO thing (we can give you this much budget etc), I dunno.
I realize I am at odds with the general GoT fan but I kind of felt the earlier seasons meandered too much, too many side stories and side political intrigue with characters that I felt were often more depth than was needed and ended up not being relevant.
So the pace in the later seasons I actually preferred. I think the main issue I had with the final season was the White Walkers not wreaking enough havoc for a longer period to help solidify the idea that while the factions were fighting each other they had missed the big threat - I felt they never paid enough of a price for that mistake of not coming together as it resolved itself a bit too easily. Sort of.
I haven't thought about this in a while, but I kinda wanted all the plots to come together at the end. They don't all align too fight the white walkers, and that battle ends up coming all the way south and forcing EVERYONE to be affected, which also leads to Daenerys flipping her lid. And Cersei probably still tries to kill her enemies even in the midst of a white walker invasion. Everyone becomes their ultimate self.
The early groundwork was there, but her switch from "tyrant in training" to "total wack-a-loon mad queen" is pretty abrupt. It basically happens all in one scene. It's not bad because she wasn't headed that way, but because that's not how she saw herself. It would have worked for me much more had she taken King's Landing with a lot of losses, and then found out the people there, rather than loving her as a liberator, saw her as just another ruler they despised. Then I think she could convince herself that her most awful impulses, more than being necessary evils, were in fact virtues.
For me the weirdest part of GoT Season 6 was that everyone suddenly can teleport after five seasons of it taking forever to get anywhere other than the one Inn that everyone stopped at when they left a castle.
Yeah, like, the show sort of plays it like Missandei's death is what does it, but that doesn't quite work. I can see that driving her to make some really dark decisions while taking the city, but under the guise that she's punishing the current rulers.
But imagine how much more powerful it would have been if they let her be queen without killing everybody and then, during like one of her walks through the city she gets tagged in the face with dung just like Geoffrey, and the people just start booing her for being a foreign invader or whatever. And then have her do that thing where she has to do hearings for the people and their disgust for her is just palpable. And then you get some scene where she realizes how much she's lost, sacrificed, thrown away, just to be on this throne, when she could have stayed across the sea.
And maybe top it off with someone else in her retinue dying, someone killed just by a random person. Then she starts to see the people themselves as the enemy, and it's all over.
For me the weirdest part of GoT Season 6 was that everyone suddenly can teleport after five seasons of it taking forever to get anywhere other than the one Inn that everyone stopped at when they left a castle.
That, and how all the characters who spent 5 seasons traveling places and learning things and becoming better people just... stop doing that and revert to their worst impulses at the last minute so they can die miserably or in some fan-wank battle that didn't need to happen. The Hound and the Mountain? Fuck that. The Hound had figured out how not to be that guy. He didn't have to be that guy. Same with Jaime. What are we even doing? If you gotta kill them, kill them, but don't take from the characters their growth.
GoT, for me, is tricky, because like I said- I do genuinely believe that, for the most part, where all the characters ended up is where they were meant to, at least as written by George. I wanna say that Benioff and Weiss said they knew from pretty early on where the story ended, so even if they didn't know every story beat (since it seems George is still figuring a lot of it out himself), they at least knew the broad strokes. Some changes had to be made, obviously, to account for characters alive in the show but dead in the books and vice versa, but I do generally think it would've ended about 80-90ish % the same, we just needed more time to get there. And I refuse to believe that HBO wouldn't have given them the money for another season if they'd asked- it was the biggest cultural phenomenon on the planet at the time. But Benioff and Weiss were lured away with the promise of a Star Wars movie that never came to fruition, which makes it sting all the more. They made their priorities clear and put Star Wars over GoT (and I do have to wonder if the reception to the final season and knowing that they rushed through it played a part in their movie never happening- why would Lucasfilm want to hire somebody if they knew they'd just rush through things if the offer of something better came along?)
I don't mind Dany ending up where she did. There's something beautifully tragic about her trying so hard not to fall victim to the same fate of her ancestors but ultimately succumbing to the same fiery rage. When viewed from a broad lens, I can see the broad strokes- the death of Missandei, Barristan, 2 of her dragons, etc., but if it was a slow build, they didn't have her react appropriately to each one and let it slowly fester. It just all came out at once. Same with Jon; I'm not opposed to him not being the one to kill the Night King. It's quite interesting, at least to me, to have a protagonist that's built up as a possible savior, and to have him ultimately not save the day. He's still the catalyst for a lot of things occuring, so in a sense he did, just without being the one to actually swing the sword. I do think Arya would've been better off being the one to take out Cersei, rather than her just being crushed (like, I see what they were (maybe?) trying for, having her and Jamie be killed by the very kingdom they fought so hard to rule (or maybe I'm just giving them too much credit) ), but if that's what they were going for, there needed to be some other steps and things wrapped up in the meantime. And with Bran- it makes sense, on some level at least, that the all-seeing, all-knowing emotionless boy would be the one to take up the throne so as to avoid all the petty emotions and secrets that led to the wars in the first place, but there needed to at least be a hint that that's what it was building toward, instead of just a last second nomination from Tyrion. The last season really needed to be at least 2 separate, even shortened, seasons- one for the White Walkers, and one for Cersei and King's landing.
And now we have the books, which may never be finished, at least while George is alive. And nobody knows if he's scrambling to rewrite things after how the show was received, changing the aspects that people didn't like, or if he's just genuinely written himself into a corner. Maybe Benioff and Weiss really did make the best of what they knew, rushed or not, because George just didn't give them quite enough. I think we'll see the end of the books eventually. Even if it's after George has passed and the publisher just hires someone else to cobble together something from all the notes (honestly- has there ever been a more passive, easy-going publisher than in this case? They could've forced his hand by now- either published what's already written, or hired someone else to go in and finish it for him for what I assume would be a breach of contract, but they're just letting him sit on it).
Still, when GoT was good, it was good. There's a reason why we still talk about Joffrey, or Cersei, or the Red Wedding, or the Battle of the Bastards, or "Tell Cersei. I want her to know it was me." There's a reason why the franchise is still going with House of the Dragon and the new spinoff coming, even if said shows aren't quite as well-received; at least HotD is taking its time (some might say too much time). It's a weird sort of middle ground for me- I like where the characters ended up, and I don't necessarily feel any of their fates were unearned, it just feels like someone hit the "skip cutscene" button on a lot of them. Tyrion, at least in my opinion, is still one of the best characters not only of the show, but in any franchise. Even when his writing declined in later seasons, Peter Dinklage put so much into him that he was still a pretty strong character. Littlefinger and Varys as well- even if I have my qualms on how each ended up- still fantastic characters. My frustration with the show is mostly focused at Benioff and Weiss. Had they not all but abandoned the show, or at least handed off showrunning duties to someone else for a season or 2, I think we would've gotten a much stronger ending, even if imperfect.
Yep, 8. The original plan (or at least one of them) was 7 seasons- they mentioned "7 seasons, like the 7 kingdoms", but then it became clear there was more story than 7 would allow. I think George had said, either during the show or some time after, that there was technically enough remaining material to go all the way to like 10 or 11 seasons if they'd stuck to the seasons having 10 episodes each, but we know how that ended.
