General Marvel Legends

I like how the conversation shifts to 'how big of a criminal would Xavier have to be, really?'


This assumes heavily that the crimes are based on the actions of a rational person.
Yeah. Most people are rational, to some extent. Even criminals.


It doesn't account of poorly wired human psychology, since most of Batman's villains are based in that realm not in a "Jean Valjean" sort of criminal behavior out of supposed necessity.
Well... not exactly. Batman's villains are primarily unhinged weirdos. But he doesn't spend the entirety of his time on them. Batman's parents weren't killed by a supervillain immortal ninja guy. They were killed by a street thug that wanted money. That was the crime Batman set out to stop. The idea that dressing up like a bat to fight crime may have created a whole set of his own new monsters is a different conversation. And fighting that type of crime is also a different conversation.

But for the type of crime that -created- Batman in the first place; money can absolutely solve the majority of that problem. Also, it's worth pointing out, that even in a world with supervillains you almost always have henchmen and gangs and suchlike - which would tend to evaporate in places where everyone's needs are met and no one needs to work for crazy crime bosses to make ends meet.


It also assumes that everyone will be happy and peaceful once they have "enough," which fundamentally goes against everything we see in human nature since the beginning.
I don't think that's entirely accurate. We've never really seen what human nature looks like when everyone has enough because most societies structure themselves around making sure people don't have enough. But do we have data that crime rates are lower in places with higher wealth levels and lower instances of poverty and food insecurity? Yes. Even in ancient and medieval agrarian society, we see way, way lower instances of theft/violent crime being documented than in nearby (ish) cities due, certainly, to smaller communities tending to suffer or thrive together, whereas the poor are often left to their own devices in cities - historically.

Obviously, we can get way deep in the weeds on this. Batman would have the same access to all of this data as we do, and could very easily see that making people not poor drastically reduces crime. That's the point many people have made and will certainly continue to make.



but like, who wants to read a comic of a guy just writing checks?
Nobody. The point isn't "is this how the comic books should be written." The point is a thought experiment on whether or not Batman makes sense, even to Batman and within his own universe, if properly examined.


He's a character created for children, and while some writers try and take him away from that, they really shouldn't have. Cause he's so ridiculous, you know?
Of course they should. Because most comics aren't read by children anymore. Superheroes have come to transcend this silly idea of 'it's for kids.' It's for everyone. So there's nothing wrong with looking at these things with the eyes and minds of actual adults. Again, though, it's only for fun. Does Batman make sense? How would Superman stop Lois's skin from peeling off when flying with her? Is Thor stronger than Hulk? These are dumb questions nerds ask to have fun and pass time. I don't think anyone wants comics to stop being comics.
 
Yeah I pretty much agree with what you're saying.

I just get tired with modern media presenting Batman as "a serious character for serious adults". Like, Matt Reeves saying "We're going to make a gritty and realistic Batman"

as opposed to....the 90s? Like Reeves, we've had so much gritty realistic batman, let him be silly again
 
Like Reeves, we've had so much gritty realistic batman, let him be silly again
It's unfortunate, but audiences often think of "realism" as the highest bar for quality. You see that in all kind of art. Like, doesn't matter what I'm drawing, if I make it more rendered and detailed, more classically "realistic" people *will* be more impressed by it, even if the composition or subject is less interesting. There's a perception that reality is the only thing we should be shooting for in fiction and that often bums me out.

This is something that's been a growing hitch for me with superhero films. After seeing the Spiderverse stuff, I'm just not as interested in live action superheroes. Animation has the feel and intensity and color I want more. I don't want everything to look just like that, of course, but animation has so many modes, and I think almost all of them are a closer fit to the comics for purposes of adaptation. But I think a lot of folks see live-action film as the ultimate legitimacy. The only way for the story to be really 'serious' enough.
 
Animation has the feel and intensity and color I want more.
Bingo. I came to the conclusion long ago that I was never going to love any live-action superhero thing as much as I love my favorite animated superhero things.
I love my gritty, spooky stuff, especially for Batman, but I definitely do *not* need “realism”. One of my biggest classic peeves about the MCU is that it tends to be so banal in its need to be “grounded” (unless it isn’t, and I definitely concede it’s gotten much better in that regard).
 
Bingo. I came to the conclusion long ago that I was never going to love any live-action superhero thing as much as I love my favorite animated superhero things.
I love my gritty, spooky stuff, especially for Batman, but I definitely do *not* need “realism”. One of my biggest classic peeves about the MCU is that it tends to be so banal in its need to be “grounded” (unless it isn’t, and I definitely concede it’s gotten much better in that regard).

Yes! While I enjoy the MCU and DCU, they can never live up to the awesomeness I feel through superheroes done right in animation.
Still would put up Earth's Mightiest Heroes for Marvel and Justice League/Unlimited as my favorite versions of media in both universes.
 
I think James Gunn is doing his darndest to bring the comic bookyness of it all to live action. Not visually necessarily, but in tone. Superman was a banger.
I definitely agree he is. The heart is willing, it's the medium itself that has limitations. There are things you can do with movement and color in animation that will never read as good (or even be possible) in live action.
 
A random thought I had in relation to the upcoming (not yet confirmed, but come on, we know) Onslaught rerelease, is i kinda wish we'd get a single card release of the Shadow King. Like, Onslaught will almost certainly be the old BAF with a refreshed head. Wouldn't it be cool if we got that old Kingpin body with a new coat of paint and a refreshed Shadow King head? That's not much to ask, right?
 
Yeah. Most people are rational, to some extent. Even criminals.
I think essentially all people are logical and moral, but the logic and morals of criminals can be based on the premise that whatever they want takes precedence over anyone else's needs and wants. So you insult me or anger me and I don't like that so I can kill you to get back at you; I can't get as much money as I want so I will take it as needed; I don't get the respect or deference I deserve so I will make you fear me through pain and harassment. Pretty much all crime is someone who has failed to get what they want through societal norms and instead of accepting that or trying to fix that, they come to the logical conclusion that they deserve what they want regardless of the impact because they shift their moral center to them above all else. It isn't rational per se, but it is logical from a certain perspective. Which is why crime can never be stopped - but also why most people never consider it, and not just because of the legal ramifications.

I think the world would be better if we assumed all people were logical and moral and therefore when they say something that seems illogical or immoral we try to figure out why they think that and attack the premise, instead of assuming they are flawed, or stupid, or evil and attack the person.

But for the type of crime that -created- Batman in the first place; money can absolutely solve the majority of that problem.
Maybe. But as long as the vast majority of people with money troubles are not shooting people in alleyways, and they are not, I think the "what do I want that I can't get but will take" mentality might change focus to something other than money. Or even if having enough, not having as much as someone else.

(Not saying not to end poverty, to be clear).


Superheroes have come to transcend this silly idea of 'it's for kids.'
Never silly for things to be for kids. (I know that isn't what you meant)
 
A random thought I had in relation to the upcoming (not yet confirmed, but come on, we know) Onslaught rerelease, is i kinda wish we'd get a single card release of the Shadow King. Like, Onslaught will almost certainly be the old BAF with a refreshed head. Wouldn't it be cool if we got that old Kingpin body with a new coat of paint and a refreshed Shadow King head? That's not much to ask, right?
I'd like this, but if they're going to do a dedicated Shadow King figure I'd like to see them lean into more monstrous parts... at least for the head and arms/hands. I'll take any large suited figures they make though as I have all of the various iterations of Kingpin, Joe Fixit, etc.
 
I'd like this, but if they're going to do a dedicated Shadow King figure I'd like to see them lean into more monstrous parts... at least for the head and arms/hands. I'll take any large suited figures they make though as I have all of the various iterations of Kingpin, Joe Fixit, etc.
Yeah, just go ahead and include the Venom hands along with the new head. In fact, maybe they reuse (with improved paint app) the old Shadow King head that came with Chuck, and then give him the normal Kingpin hands, and also Venom hands and a normal Shadow King human head as the new sculpt. That'd work, right? Surely. Then you get both human and monstered out versions of the guy and basically all it costs in new molds is one human head. I feel like that'd be enough for folks to think it was worth the pickup (especially folks like me who really don't want to drop a c-note on the old Kingpin BAF).
 
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