Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

[fac]

I'm not blaming the fans for not embracing Shuri or Shang-Chi, their films were OK but not great, and as noted they have been sidelined for a while. But that's the problem, I just think the momentum for the whole thing has been lost and trying to do more standalone films for them will go as well as having three standalone Ant-Man films has done. X-Men and FF and more Spidey/DD are the future, and a new Avengers that is truly only seen as a team makes sense to me - New and/or Young - can include a larger cast, but like the Guardians they should be a team from the get go and not a "coming together" of other solo series anymore as an event.

I haven't seen Marvel Zombies, I put my Disney on hold months ago as they aren't doing anything "must see" at the moment for me for the MCU, SW or Doctor Who...

 

[Fletch]

Yeah, real shame about Shang-Chi. I thought everybody really liked him and thought his movie was a breath of fresh air. I wonder where his post-credit scene was supposed to go.

Shuri, however, has an uphill battle for me. I didn't take to her as T'challa's genius sister, let alone as Black Panther.

I've seen the first episode of Marvel Zombies, and it jumped out at me how much of the Young Avengers are just fangirls of other Avengers. I was watching with the sound down and subtitles on, and sometimes had trouble knowing who was saying which line.

 

[fac]

I think Shang Chi got lost in the shuffle - after the two year gap after Endgame they released 4 films in 6 months, and they were hyping Eternals and then Spidey more even as it was about to be in theaters. I liked it but I think it was treated a bit like an afterthought between finally getting a solo Black Widow and The Eternals (promoted as a new phase in sophisticated Marvel with an Oscar winner director), and the rumors of Spidey by a crossover with the past Spideys. Not sure it felt all that special amongst that company...and fell into the too many new characters, too many storylines being started problems of Phase 4 and 5...

 

[SDcomics]

Wakanda Forever made 859 million at the worldwide box office, and in the post pandemic world that's a pretty solid number. Bear in mind that people in China don't go see American movies anymore because we have a shit head for a President. That's a big chunk of your global box office right there. And domestically, I totally get Americans wanting to wait for movies to hit streaming instead of going to theaters. You've got your big 70 inch screen TV, you've got your surround sound, you've got your own snacks and soda that you're not paying a small fortune at the counter for, you don't have kids running around and people talking, and you can hit the pause button when you have to go potty. I get it. I can't argue with it. But basically what that means is the days of movies making two billion at the box office are over. The one billion dollar movies are going to be very few and far between. I know people talk about "superhero fatigue" and I suppose there's some truth to that. but honestly it's not just limited to superheroes. It's really "going to the movies in general fatigue." Yep, every once in a while you're going to get a Barbie or a Minecraft that surprises pundits and does quite well. But those are the exceptions. My local theater is dead on Fridays and Saturdays now when it used to be packed. Seriously, when you can walk into your local mulitplex and see more employees than paying customers, you have a problem.

There's most likely going to be a Black Panther 3. Ryan Coogler, a director that Marvel likes quite a bit, has talked to Denzel Washington about a part, so he has a story in mind. It's going to have to wait until after Secret Wars, but we'll see it.

There was a plan for Shang Chi 2. It was going to be called "Shang Chi and the Wreckage of Time" and it was going to tie into the ten rings and the Multiverse saga. But then that real life thing reared it's ugly head again. The crap with Jonathan Majors happened and Kang got tossed out. So too, did the Wreckage of Time. I believe there'll be another Shang Chi but like with Black Panther, it's going to have to wait until after Secret Wars now.

I know that five and six years is a long time to wait for a sequel, but there's nothing anyone can do about writer's strikes, actors getting arrested, CEO's changing hands, pandemics, and other assorted real life stuff. I don't think a long wait between movies is a big deal. There was 27 years between Top Gun and Top Gun: Maverick, and that did okay. Just make a good movie and people will go see it. Or at least watch it on Disney + if nothing else.

I've said this before, but I think Secret Wars will result in a soft reboot for the MCU, like the Secret Wars mini series resulted in a soft reboot in the comics. You will see a major narrative reset with the Fantastic Four and the X-Men fully integrated into the MCU. That will provide a clean slate and a single, unified reality. Of course there will be a few characters who will remember the old timeline. Loki (The God of Stories) will be one. The Fantastic Four, because they came from a different world. Peter Parker, because he was already erased from the timeline by Doctor Strange. Wanda possibly. The Vision.

The advantages to a reset: It gets rid of the five year snap and erases that confusion. It gets a world that has the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, the X-Men and SHIELD all existing together along with untold story possibilities. And the best part? You can bring back what was lost along the way with a new cast. Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Natasha Romanoff, T'Challa and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. In other words, Marvel Studios can have what they didn't have when they started the MCU: a complete Marvel Universe.

And if you hate that idea? You're going to have to tell Marvel. Because I'm pretty sure that's what they're going to do.

 

[SDcomics]

Avengers Endgame was released on April 26th, 2019.

Avengers Doomsday will be released on December 18th, 2026.

That's 7 years, 7 months and 22 days.

Yeah, that's a long time. But y'know. Pandemics. Strikes. Actors getting arrested. CEO's changing hands.

I'm just grateful we're getting another Avengers movie at all.

 

[SDcomics]

This is an article from last summer but it's worth a read if you haven't seen it:

Avengers: Secret Wars will "reset" the MCU into a "singular timeline," but Kevin Feige says it's not quite a reboot: "Reboot is a scary word"

The MCU will be getting an overhaul soon

www.gamesradar.com

Kevin Feige has revealed that a Marvel "reset" is in the works – though it's not a full reboot.

The news comes ahead of Marvel Phase 6 kicking off in just a few days with the release of The Fantastic Four: First Steps.

As Feige explained to assembled journalists at a press event (via Variety), Avengers: Secret Wars will be the catalyst for a new MCU. "We're utilizing that [story] not just to round out the stories we've been telling post-Endgame, just as importantly – and you can look at the Secret War comics for where that takes you – it very, very much sets us up for the future," Feige revealed. "Endgame, literally, was about endings. Secret Wars is about beginnings."

 

[SDcomics]

Some of you might find this handy:

How to watch The Defenders Saga in order on Disney Plus

The Netflix Marvel shows are now known as The Defenders Saga on Disney Plus. Here's how to watch them in order

www.gamesradar.com

 

[Ru1977]

This is an article from last summer but it's worth a read if you haven't seen it:

Avengers: Secret Wars will "reset" the MCU into a "singular timeline," but Kevin Feige says it's not quite a reboot: "Reboot is a scary word"

The MCU will be getting an overhaul soon

www.gamesradar.com

Right, I took that to mean there will be a single universe again, but basically a salad bar where they incorporate the most beloved characters from each reality. And my suspicion, or maybe it's just how I'd do it were I to be Feige, is that universe will be the one shown in First Steps.

 

[fac]

You can bring back what was lost along the way with a new cast. Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Natasha Romanoff, T'Challa and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. In other words, Marvel Studios can have what they didn't have when they started the MCU: a complete Marvel Universe.

And if you hate that idea? You're going to have to tell Marvel. Because I'm pretty sure that's what they're going to do.

Well, I doubt they will recast. They have spent the last few years making clear that many of these characters are titles - we have had 4 Captain Americas mentioned (Bradley, Rogers, Walker, Wilson) and multiple Black Panthers. Many people including Banner have worn armor and still do (Rhodey, Riri). Yelena is the new Black Widow. Marvel knows their actors will grow older or decide not to continue, and they have done the smart thing of using the comic lore to have character replacements - we have Kate Bishop Hawkeye now, we have Cassie for Ant/Giant Man, we have Wiccan and Speed to replace Wanda and Quicksilver, we have She Hulk and they even introduced Skaar at the end of her series, and once Holland leaves they can do Miles Morales. 15 years from now they can do this again if they want to pass the torch to new talent with new characters.

So I don't think they will recast anyone because they have chosen already to move ahead with new characters with the same powerset/name/lineage to keep things progressing and not stagnate, and I do not think they have a storytelling advantage to bring those past characters back in recast roles. Instead they are building the Thunderbolts* and the Young Avengers as teams that they can mix and match with from their catalog of characters they have introduced the last few years.

I read the quote from Feige to be about how they want to integrate their other properties - X-Men, Deadpool, FF and probably Netflix - into the MCU and become the new pillars of the MCU. If they decide to revisit Stark, Rogers, etc I think it will be as standalone films like DC is doing with the Batman, not as part of the ongoing MCU lineage. I also think there is a good chance most fans would reject recasts for some of those characters in the MCU.

Only one I can see getting a film would be Rogers Cap, as they can set his adventures in the past that he went to at the end of Endgame.

I know you want to see the classic Avengers interact with the classic FF and core X-Men but I don't see it happening after Secret Wars. It has nothing to do with liking or hating the idea, I just don't think they will, and I think they have set up the next generation to sink or swim.

 

[AceofKnaves]

Oof.
If they don’t recast, they are gonna have an incredibly hard time holding my interest. I’m definitely interested in *characters*, not to tiles or costumes.
I wouldn’t be interested in a DCU that meaningfully moved on from Bruce Wayne, Clark/Kal, etc. either.
The whole point of what I like about comic book stories is that the characters I love stick around and/or come back. That’s literally what I want.

 

[Ru1977]

I get both sides. I totally get the appeal of the legacy torch passing, especially if they can make the new character really awesome, like Yelena. I am down with Kate as well. But I also get the appeal of all the classic, beloved characters. I imagine even if they do this legacy way for a bit, the others will come back. That's why I could see them cropping back up in the FF world, even going in order they appeared in the comics.

 

[SDcomics]

Well, I doubt they will recast. They have spent the last few years making clear that many of these characters are titles - we have had 4 Captain Americas mentioned (Bradley, Rogers, Walker, Wilson) and multiple Black Panthers. Many people including Banner have worn armor and still do (Rhodey, Riri). Yelena is the new Black Widow

Yes, and in the comics, there have been a bunch of people take up the mantle of Captain America, a bunch of people wear Stark's armor, a bunch of Hulks, a bunch of Panthers and even a different Black Widow. And ya know what? In the comics, Steve is still Captain America. Banner is still the Hulk. T'Challa is still the Black Panther and Natasha is still the Widow. Of course, Sam Wilson can still wear the stars and stripes, Yelena can still be a Black Widow and so on. You can have more than one character wear the same mantle. Look at DC. How many Flashes are there? How many Green Lanterns? Yes, you can do it. And from the studio's perspective, the more characters you have, the more merchandise you can sell.

I think at the end of the day the fans are going to want Steve Rogers wearing the stars and stripes, Tony Stark wearing the armor and Banner turning green. I mean we'll see what Marvel does but with a reset it would not surprise me at all if they did that.

Marvel knows their actors will grow older or decide not to continue,

Well, that's the great thing about a reboot. You can start over with a new, young cast of 20 somethings.

It's not unheard of. The first James Bond movie came out in the early 1960's. How many actors have played that part since then? How many have played James Kirk? It's doable.

and they have done the smart thing of using the comic lore to have character replacements -

And that's fine, and yes, in the comics Kate Bishop is Hawkeye. But so is Clint Barton. He's still Hawkeye. Like I said, it's possible to have more than one character share the same mantle.

I know you want to see the classic Avengers interact with the classic FF and core X-Men but I don't see it happening after Secret Wars. It has nothing to do with liking or hating the idea, I just don't think they will, and I think they have set up the next generation to sink or swim.

All I can say is I hope you're wrong. Why set up the next generation to possibly sink when you can have the originals right along beside them? Again, it's been going on in the comics for quite sometime.

And just to be clear, I have absolutely nothing against any of the replacements. I have been a Sam Wilson fan since 1969. That's when he first appeared and Steve trained him to become the Falcon. I was thrilled when he took up the mantle of Captain America, both in the comics and on the screen. And it's the same with Yelena, Katie, Billy, Tommy, Jennifer and all the other new characters.

You can both old and new. I don't see why you couldn't.

And ... think of the TOYS.

 

[Fletch]

And my suspicion, or maybe it's just how I'd do it were I to be Feige, is that universe will be the one shown in First Steps.

First time hearing this idea and I really like it. Finally make them the First Family of a new MCU.

 

[SDcomics]

Oof.
If they don’t recast, they are gonna have an incredibly hard time holding my interest. I’m definitely interested in *characters*, not to tiles or costumes.
I wouldn’t be interested in a DCU that meaningfully moved on from Bruce Wayne, Clark/Kal, etc. either.
The whole point of what I like about comic book stories is that the characters I love stick around and/or come back. That’s literally what I want.

See?

That's not so hard to understand, is it?

 

[AceofKnaves]

You can both old and new. I don't see why you couldn't.

Right!?!?
The medium of comic-book storytelling is ever-expanding, there is absolutely no need for “out with the old” to get “in with the new”.

I “get” the preciousness over not replacing MCU actors, but it makes about as much sense to me as only ever having one artist draw Cap or only one writer ever write him. How limiting!