Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

Damien said:
I'm going to say something controversial; I don't care very much about tertiary characters. I think sometimes storytelling over-relies on the idea that you have to flesh out everything to make the narrative feel 'real.' Every character can't 'matter' or you get bogged down in a lot of ultimately futile nonsense. But I also see what you're saying. You do need to give a character the -appearance- of agency. I just think it can go too far and shows/movies (and books as well) can go in the direction of wasting the audience's time with characters no one actually cares about and whose lives don't matter to the larger narrative.
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A good example of this is Peter Jackson's King Kong. Takes 80 minutes before we meet Kong, 8 or 9 characters have storylines introduced in those first 80 minutes and then half of them are just killed unceremoniously by a bug or something. The move ends up clocking in at 3 hours 25 minutes.
 
Conversely, I've always had a thing for tertiary characters. In fact, a lot of my favorite characters from almost any franchise are either the side characters or villains. A lot of times, due to main characters having to be the audience surrogate, they don't always get fleshed out as much, because then it gets harder to relate to them. But side characters? I feel like they get just enough characterization to connect, but also don't pass the line of having an air of mystery that allows us to project our wants and needs onto them. The side characters are the ones that are often allowed to be messy, to say and do the questionable (yet memorable) things, whereas heroes have to remain moral to a degree. With Marvel it gets a bit tricky, because depending on the film, even the main characters can be side characters. Star-Lord, for instance- main character of Guardians, but side character in Infinity War (I know it's an ensemble film, but you know what I mean). Then you have someone like Wong, who's kind of a supporting character in everything he's in, but people love him. But I dig it- those side characters help the world feel more fleshed out, and when they get made into figures, it helps my shelf feel more populated too. Heck, I see it joked about all the time that you're not a true Star Wars fan if you don't have a favorite background character.
 
Tertiary characters are all well and good. They certainly don't need to be entirely fleshed out so I align with what Damien had to say. It's fine to just have inferences and leave things unstated and allow the viewer to fill in the gaps as they please. I do see a lot of criticism these days directed towards characters not being "fully developed," which is sometimes valid, but for side characters is rarely warranted. It strikes me as a very easily form of film criticism and in an era where everyone can be an online critic it's an easy go-to for a lot of people. It can be amusing to look at classic TV shows and apply modern think to their early seasons: "That Kramer guy across the hall is really weird for no reason - so underdeveloped."

There's also the bonus in a long-running series where a writer who does want to engage with some unexplored aspect of a side character they can do so via a spotlight episode. So many of these streaming shows are hyper focused on having their seasons unfold like a long movie at times that we there often isn't time or space for such episodes. The Mandalorian is one of the exceptions, though in the case of that show's second season it didn't feel like writers were coming aboard who wanting to dig into other characters, but more like someone deciding the show's success meant they should devote a ton of it to backdoor pilots.
 
Well again, my original point wasn't fleshing out every character as much as involving them more in the plot. We know things about Foggy because of little throwaway comments and flashbacks, but those scenes are more about Matt anyway. What I'm referring to is giving these characters their own scenes and b plots that always ended up tying into the main plot as well. Remember Karen's big scene with Wesley? If that were to happen in Born Again, they wouldn't have done it without Matt being present. But the way it played out was a HUGE moment for her that had lasting repercussions for her AND the other characters. Wesley himself is another one, who was way more developed than Buck without ever going into his backstory or anything. So while I enjoy when they do things like that, it still wasn't necessary for getting me to care about the characters, such as Wesley.
 
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I don’t see a hard and fast rule on what time & attention a side character could or should get. They should get as much time and attention as the performance, story and thematic resonance of their presence deserve based on quality and level of engagement. Give me all the time with side characters in MadMen and the Wire. Less please in the Netflix Marvelverse. (Except for Misty Knight. I liked her stories )
 
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PantherCult said:
and the one episode of She Hulk to get the full Matt Murdock
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He's actually in two eps - he's also in the finale, so you may not yet have gotten the full Matt Murdock. Unlike She-Hulk.
:)
Damien said:
Would Infinity War be a good movie if End Game never happened?
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Yes. I think Infinity War is great standalone - it's a downer, but "We lost" is fantastic. I have a home video of me at like eight playing with my Power Rangers, who are all face down in the grass, saying "They're dead. How tragic." So maybe I've always been this way. A loss amidst many wins is super important.
Ru1977 said:
So while I enjoy when they do things like that, it still wasn't necessary for getting me to care about the characters, such as Wesley.
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Someone brought up every Vanessa/therapy scene as being a reshoot - I hadn't realized that. I wonder if Buck had more to do with Vanessa early on that they just chose not to reshoot. Just throwing this idea out there, since he was very underdeveloped. But yes - Wesley was great exactly as he was used and made an impact in his limited screentime. Not a lot of characters are utilized that well anymore - or story time.

For example - in my write-up on the penultimate episode I called Cherry "Jerry" because I didn't realize his name was Cherry. For a character in most episodes, for me to have their name wrong - it's not all on me.
 
Yeah I agree. And I feel kinda bad but I never retained Matt's new law partner's name either. She, Cherry, and Heather felt pretty superfluous for the most part. It's hard for me to care too much when the writers don't seem to. An extra beat or two of Heather with Muse would have been good. Even just ONE session with them, showing us how she is treating him rather than one scene of him telling us how she treated him. A little more building Heather's connection with Matt. but again, this seems like something the writers found boring or weren't capable of making it compelling, so why should we care either?

Wesley... they NEVER explained how he and Fisk met, where he came from, any backstory whatsoever. What they showed was Wesley having a very sincere caring for Fisk, almost like a puppy looking for validation. Yearning to hear Fisk thinks of him as a best friend.

And again, Born Again is a good show, I just couldn't help noticing things the original did a lot better with very little effort.
 
Visible effort, at least. :)

The best side character in the new season is probably Baby Gandolfini - if ever there was a character who could play Fisk's son, it's this guy. But... I am struggling AGAIN to remember his name. I can remember his plotlines, though, and while they didn't all ring true - is anyone that age really that devoted to anything SOOO completely? No moral struggle? And that slip-up with BB was very clumsily written - he shined as a solid (and terrifying) supporting character.
 
I wouldn't mind if he became the Rose honestly.

But yeah he's another whose name escapes me. Chip or something.
 
Baby Gandolfini is a stand in for the "Big Balls" young Republican operative types being put in charge of governmental agencies and processes far beyond their maturity and experience. Their main qualifying feature being loyalty. Like all the people we sent over to Iraq to run the provisional government, etc. Same joke they made in Armando Iannucci's brilliant "In the Loop" movie which strangely sounds quaint now. The Iannucci's film more relevant these days is "The Death of Stalin"; slapstick gulags and firing squads and all.
 
Apparently legit plot spoilers are out there for Thunderbolts* (I saw them on an MCU spoiler reddit), so beware. Or go looking if that's your thing, heh.
 
Phase Five

65. Thunderbolts* - May 2nd, 2025

66. Ironheart - June 24th, 2025


Phase Six

67. Fantastic Four: First Steps - July 25th, 2025

68. Wonder Man - December 2025

69. Untitled Marvel Studios Film - February 13th, 2026

70. Daredevil: Born Again Season Two - March, 2026

71. Avengers: Doomsday - May 1st, 2026

72. Spider-Man: Brand New Day - July 26th, 2026

73. Untitled Marvel Studios Film - November 6th, 2026

74. Avengers: Secret Wars - May 7th, 2027

VisionQuest and The Punisher Special will come out in 2026, but no word yet on exactly when. I imagine we will find out at SDCC.


Phase Seven (?)

75. Untitled Marvel Studios Film - July 23rd, 2027

76. Untitled Marvel Studios Film - November 5th, 2027

77. Untitled Marvel Studios Film - February 18th, 2028

78. Untitled Marvel Studios Film - May 5th, 2028

79. Untitled Marvel Studios Film - November 10th, 2028
 
Speaking of SDCC (We weren't, but we are now) it's coming up in 3 short months. Assuming Marvel is there, here's what they could possibly talk about:

First look at Daredevil Born Again Season Two

First look at Avengers: Doomsday (and maybe an idea of where they're going with that)

First look at Wonder Man

First look at VisionQuest (If that actually ends up being the show's name)

Some very preliminary artwork from the Punisher Special.

Probably nothing for Spider-Man: Brand New Day. That will be up to Sony.

The Fantastic Four will be released the same weekend as SDCC. (Quite a coincidence, eh?). I'm guessing the FF will have it's world premiere right here in San Diego.

There's an untitled Marvel Studios movie that's due to be released on February 13th, 2026. I dunno about that. That's less than a year away and we don't even know what it is yet. If Marvel's serious about that date, they need to get on the stick.

So next week, Thunderbolts. Ironheart in June and then Fantastic Four in July. Bring it on. I am so freakin' ready to Marvel right now.
 
I'm hopeful for a lot of this stuff coming up. This Saga has not been as overall good as the Infinity Saga for me. Some good movies, but a lot of movies that felt bland or unnecessary. But what is happening now, I feel hopeful for and would like to see it bring everything together. I really enjoyed Daredevil Born Again and think it setup the potential for an amazing Season 2. And everything I'm hearing about Thunderbolts; it sounds like it may be one of the best MCU movies in a while.

Fantastic 4 looks fun, and I like that they are from an alternate Universe than the 616 Universe of the MCU.

I'm not very excited about Iron Heart, as it's just not a character I'm really familiar with in the comics, and I didn't think she was that impressive in Black Panther 2. But I will definitely watch the show to see if it's good.

But next year, with Doomsday and Spider-Man, as well as Daredevil Born Again season 2. I'm ready for all of that. And I'm very excited to see the Fox X-Men in Doomsday. I LOVE all things Fox X-Men.
 
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