Continuing my MCU rewatch

[Schizm]

I hear the cartoonish vibe on Serkis and don't disagree, but he was great in Andor. Still want a figure of his character!

Boseman is fine, but I've never understood everyone's love for him - the best part of this film was the 20 minutes he was "dead" leaving all the screentime for the fantastic female cast. Everyone else on the screen is more interesting than him. Maybe it is because he acts kind of detached?

The civil war that erupts in this film in ONE DAY has always bothered me deeply - brothers and sisters killing each other because ONE GUY said to. But the fact they agree to start murdering civilians on the whim of a stranger, who is clearly a murderous lunatic?* The Wakandans are... not great. I love Okoye and her sense of duty, but her defense is frightening. It's why I could never be a soldier.

I wish we'd gotten to see a sequel to this story with Boseman pre-Infinity War/Endgame. I was really interested to see the world react to their offer and how they would improve all socities. All of that was squelched in favor of the bigger MCU-picture, and then squelched further by not recasting T'Challa.


*Yes, unfortunate real-world parallels have made this plot point even less entertaining over the years.

 

[AceofKnaves]

I love Okoye and her sense of duty, but her defense is frightening. It's why I could never be a soldier.

Yep.
I rewatched this a week or so ago for the first time in a while and I was totally shocked at my visceral emotional reaction to the Wakandans just turning on each other, not just because of Killmonger (which is bad enough) but because “honor” and “duty”.
Like HOLY SHIT Okoye.
But, I guess, it’s “accurate to the real world” where supposedly-honorable soldiers just stand by while evil men take power.

 

[Fletch]

The civil war that erupts in this film in ONE DAY has always bothered me deeply - brothers and sisters killing each other because ONE GUY said to.

This never stood out to me. As far as I can tell, the border tribe represents the military, and they seem pretty detached from inner-Wakanda. It's always felt to me like this was some long-standing issues bubbling to the surface. W'kabi was so eager to drain the swamp and have a new king.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, Chadwick Boswman is the most interesting part of Black Panther. I think his T'challa is cool as Hell. But as soon as he puts the costume on, he becomes super-generic super character. There was one shot at the beginning with one of the slavers shining a light onto BP lurking in a tree that was the Panther I wanted to see. Otherwise he's just standing there taking bullet hits and explode-punching the ground.

 

[Fletch]

I made it!!

Infinity War

An unexpected feeling when this movie came out is how it recaptured the excitement of seeing characters from different movies teaming up together. By now, we'd just come to accept that Tony, Thor and Steve worked together regularly, but seeing Dr. Strange make portals for Starlord, fer instance, really takes me back.

This is the Big One, so I'm not limiting myself to just 13 comments:

1. You guys remember when they had some sheet-covered statues at Comic-Con that looked exactly like they were hiding the Fantastic Four, and they just revealed them to be the Thanos goon squad? Hahaha!! But really, what was the deal with Proxima and Corvus? Like, Ebony Maw was telekinetic and Obsidian was a hulking brute with a shape-shifting hammer, but the other two were just "person with spear." I didn't get exactly what made them stand out from each other, let alone anyone else.
   
   
2. In hindsight, it seems like a mistake to have Black Panther released between Ragnarok and Infinity War. Since this follows directly from that. I don't know what the filming environment was or if there was a decision to release a particular movie in a month with bigger earnings, but on rewatch, taking a break from the end of Ragnarok so we could check in on T'Challa before getting back to the destruction of the Asgardians was a real conversation shovel. I would definitely recommend watching them as Spider-Man 2 --> Black Panther --> Thor 3 --> Infinity War.
   
   
3. As far as I can tell, Loki had the ability to Tesseract away from the dying Asgardian ship whenever he wanted. And while we're here, the destruction of the Asgardian ship seemed pretty complete with what seems to be Thor as the only survivor. I wonder where all the survivors came from for New Asgard on Earth. Thor does say Thanos killed half of Asgard, but I can't figure out where the other half is. But I guess "killing half" is sort of Thanos' thing, so it makes sense.
   
   
4. Tony and Pepper’s reaction to seeing Bruce was really good. Both very subtle but really strongly felt. For characters who had kind of exhausted their welcome with me, it was a nice moment.
   
   
5. So Tony just carries that flip phone around with him?
   
   
6. It would’ve been just as easy to NOT show the teleport circles cutting off limbs. It added nothing to the scene and raised a very real question about how to handle Thanos.
   
   
7. So, I figure Gamora singing along to “Rubber Band” is like when I sing along to K-pop songs? Just repeating words I don’t understand because I’ve heard them enough times? I've had questions about how language works since GotG vol. 1. Then, I commented on how "Knowhere" as a name *only* works in English, and here they double down by having Thor say that Thanos is going there and the Guardians thinking he meant Thanos is going nowhere. A whole conversation based around aliens speaking English to a space viking.
   
   
8. But this is really how you do a Thor. He retains his authority and power, but can still be funny just by not being aware of Earth cultural elements. He honestly thought Kevin Bacon *could* be on the Avengers by now. I never thought he was an idiot in this movie and really believed it when he arrived on Earth and Banner was all "now you guys are screwed." Also, "all words are made up" is just the kind of low-key blunt wisdom that I expect from King Thor.
   
   
9. When I first saw this, did I really think Gamora killed Thanos on Knowhere? I know I was surprised by the Reality Stone reveal, so I must’ve believed that she'd stabbed him in the throat. I wish I could rediscover that moment and what I must've thought was happening.
   
   
10. The absolute horror of what Thanos does to Drax and Mantis. Even had her eye still blinking like they were aware of being sproinged apart. But it's also worth noting that they go back to normal immediately after he leaves. The Reality Stone can only effect reality in his immediate presence. I've seen arguments that he should've used the stone to just double the universe's resources, but that's not how it works as seen here.
    
    
11. Hold up, the plan to stop Squidward was Peter’s idea? Go Spidey! See, there is a benefit to watching really old movies like Alien and Empire Strikes Back.
    
    
12. Shame about Thor getting a new eye, though. I liked the eyepatch look on him and it was a great visual indicator of his struggles up to this point.
    
    
13. It’s a long movie, sure, but it’s really excellent at telling multiple parallel stories and keeping the momentum going on all of them. Nothing feels rushed and there’s no dead time. And characters still get moments, like Thor and Rocket’s talk about loss and Tony and Stephen butting egos.
    
    
14. There’s something about MCU dwarfs being gigantic that puts a smile on my face. It's such a simple concept but it upends all expectations and makes Asgardian lore feel alien and magical again.
    
    
15. 14 million possible futures is such an outlandish number for them to choose. Not only is it conceptually impossible to imagine Strange looking at that many anythings, but it makes the odds of success so miniscule that I can’t even believe they stumbled on the right path at the end. If he’d said “two thousand possible futures” it still would’ve felt like a long shot, but still have been vaguely achievable. I don’t think they stopped to think of what a big number 14 million really is. And even then, there only being one possible route to success makes everything else seem performative. If he’d said there were only six possible routes to winning, at least we could assume that everything he did was in an attempt to win, but paths kept closing off to him as events happened until he only had the one chance left. Watching it again, it's just him going through the motions because he knows the only way to win is to let Thanos stab Tony and giving him the Time Stone. It lands kind of flat.
    
    
16. However, this is the greatest Dr. Strange has ever been. The variety and wildness of his spells was an absolute joy. A master of the mystic arts vs. the Infinity Gauntlet was epic. There was even a fun mini-game of trying to see which stones Thanos had to call on to counter each of Strange's spells.
    
    
17. I'm just going to say it, this was a dumb cameo for Red Skull, especially since they didn’t get Hugo Weaving back to do it. Why even do it at that point?
    
    
18. Oh, an interesting misremembering here. It’s not “that which you love most,” just “that which you love.” It makes Clint and Natasha’s struggle make more sense, since presumably he loved his wife or kids the most.
    
    
19. What a disappointing shield they found for cap. I guess they were saving the return of Cap's shield for the grand finale, but he's in Wakanada, the home of vibranium, and all they get for him are a couple punching shields? Maybe a force shield like the border tribe uses. Or two small gold throwing disks if they wanted to lean into the Nomad identity. Just not "oh, it has a sliding function" shields.
    
    
20. The contrast between the mass battle in Wakanda and the many vs one fight on Titan was smart. Makes them interesting in different ways. It's a trope I've liked since Return of the Jedi.
    
    
21. I like that Starlord was treated as an equal here. A couple jokes at his expense, but mostly someone who was able to hold his own against Iron Man AND Spider-Man and come up with the plan that stopped Thanos, all while going through an emotional wringer. I still think it was a bad idea to make the plan to stop Thanos fail because of him, though. Not only does it make him culpable for Thanos' victory, but it makes the other heroes look like idiots for not taking the half-second you'd need to web him up or something. Maybe they could've spared Drax from holding his leg for a second or two.
    
    
22. Hulk getting his ass beat so badly that he was afraid to come out again is a fun character story. I was a little disappointed that we never actually got the Hulk again in this movie, but I guess I was okay with Banner out-thinking Cull Obsidian. But then I learned there was a plan to have Banner and Hulk reconcile and tear out of the Hulkbuster armor as Professor Hulk and I feel really cheated. Probably not fair to judge this movie based on what comes after, but having Banner's evolution happen off-screen should be a war crime.
    
    
23. Thanos: “The galaxy doesn’t have enough resources” (retires to lush planet with nobody else on it.)
    
    
24. I don't recall being particularly shocked that Thanos won in the end. Not because Mark Ruffalo spoiled it in an interview, but because I already knew there was a part 2 coming. Metalogic told me that there wouldn't be a part 2 if they defeated him in part 1.
    
    
25. You know what would’ve been a good What If…? episode? What if the other half had survived the Snap? Could Dr. Strange, Nick Fury, Black Panther and Groot fix things?

I remember praising Civil War for how they gave each character something cool to do, and this movie does that but, like, times three. So many characters getting so many hero moments. Unless you're Drax, then you just grab Thanos' knee for a while and then turn to potato flakes. But they've yet to have a good purpose for Drax, so that's totally in-character as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Schizm]

I would definitely recommend watching them as Spider-Man 2 --> Black Panther --> Thor 3 --> Infinity War.

This is an interesting idea. Do you mean Spider-Man: Homecoming instead of FFH? Also, that is a REALLY cool idea for a What If? episode.

The part of Infinity War that has always bothered me is Cap, Natasha and Sam feeling underwritten. Natasha/Bruce getting a convo might help, Sam doing anything. These three just felt really shortchanged and the stinger of Black Widow's movie definitely helped, if you like reverse-engineering.

"Liked" is the wrong word, but I thought the individual character deaths in IW were interesting choices and really tied together the rest of this cast. Gamora's is awful and she joins the long Disney tradition of death by long fall. I liked Red Skull appearing - that character wasn't going anywhere anyway, so it's kind of a sad period on the end of his greedy story.

The reveal of Knowhere destroyed and on fire was also really well-executed. I liked how this movie handled Peter and I agree, making him the reason Thanos got away does feel like a misstep.

Watching Bucky dust first has always felt a little weird to me because I know Steve loves Bucky, but he's so underwritten at this point. The VFX are also wonky on him dusting and I have to stop from laughing.

Hulk's not!ending - I get both sides to this, and would love to see the original edit to see how it felt. I don't disagree with moving it - I really liked that everyone LOST so definitively. But this happening offscreen is definitely a choice I wish they hadn't made.

 

[Fletch]

Do you mean Spider-Man: Homecoming instead of FFH?

Yeah, I guess I do. Oop.

Cap, Natasha and Sam feeling underwrittOops.

Full agreement, actually. I had come away thinking they'd managed to give everyone something cool to do, but I can't think of anything cool these three did.

Wait, Steve did spend half the movie saying "we don't trade lives" and making the absolute wrongest call since Starlord pistol whipped Thanos. That's something.

Gamora's is awful

It's kind of a forced event, but I like it. They had to write it in such a way that it was even necessary (like, it's not a logical plot point or foreshadowed in any way), but it's some great acting from Saldana and Brolin, so it's a net positive for me.

It also stood out at the time to me that, being one of two main character deaths not caused by the Snap, it was irreversible. Derp.

Hulk's not!ending - I get both sides to this, and would love to see the original edit to see how it felt. I don't disagree with moving it - I really liked that everyone LOST so definitively.

I didn't know they actually shot it. I thought it was just the original idea. I think it would've been an all-around improvement for Banner to get another crack at Thanos as the Hulk before getting stuck in the cliff face.

 

[Schizm]

Oh yeah, that's why Hulk was running with the Wakanda team in the trailer, I think? And also why Ruffalo's head looks so pasted on to the Hulkbuster body at the end - because it was a rush.

Cap did get his kick-ass step from the shadows moment. That was great.

 

[Ru1977]

Yeah, they actually have that as an extra on the Blu-ray with him Hulking out in the armor, defeating Cull, then Natasha talking to him after to show what has happened with them merging. It is unfinished but yeah, that's the ONE thing I would change about IW and Endgame.

 

[Fletch]

That's all new to me. I do believe that the Hulk running with the crew moment in the trailer was *just* for the trailer, though. Kind of like how they didn't show all the Stones Thanos had at any moment to keep things unspoiled. I've heard complaints, but I kind of like a trailer that's more "you're going to see this *kind* of movie."

So, does he come out of the can as smart Hulk? I'd always imagined the Thanos rematch would be Hulk with maybe a repulsor gauntlet or something as a power-up. That was my fanfic version, at least.

 

[Ru1977]

Yeah he comes out of the armor as smart hulk. Natasha asks if he is okay or something and he explains they figured it out together. After that is when Thanos shows up, so the shot of them running as a group was likely from that point

 

[Schizm]

Huh. I found the scenes:

The last one is a goof, but I've only seen bits before. If a car commercial can make Carol fun, how did Marvel fail her 2.5 times?

I've never seen these clips before. Having this scene take place here actually does make some sense - and it partially works to solve my problem of giving Sam and Nat something more to do.

 

[Ru1977]

And the thing about the Russos wanting the Avengers to lose, but Hulk coming together like that felt like a win... Either way, they defeat Cull Obsidian, and the other two as well. They seem like they're gonna pull it off, so what difference does that one bit make? Let Hulk have that small victory, then Thanos beats them all, then he wiped out half the universe... Big fat loss. And this major Hulk develop actually occurs on screen.

 

[fac]

That does seem like it would have made for a nice sequence. That joins them cutting the sequence where Natasha sees the kids playing as Avengers in her film as decisions I don't get.

I also wonder if they got gun shy since Whedon had talked about possibly having Hulk burst out of an IM suit against Ultron, which I thought would have been great.

 

[Fletch]

Thanks, Schizm. Those are pretty awesome and I hadn't seen any of that yet. "So what? You love to fight." That's pretty good.

I like that they still went with the smart defeat of Cull. It's a hard argument why a smart Hulk is better than a savage Hulk. I wonder what the rematch with Thanos was intended to be. Prolly just stuck in the wall straight away, I guess.

 

[Fletch]

Ant-Man & the Wasp

Kind of awkwardly sat after the Snap, but with no reference to it until the post-credit scene. I don't know that there's a better place for it, because you want to fill the time between Infinity War and Endgame, but still kind of noticeable.

1. Ohmylord that de-aging is flawless. Like with RDJ in Civil War, I'm guessing it really benefits from having such a library of film with these actors in their 20s and 30s.
   
   
2. Agent Woo is such a breakout character. His exposition dump at the start is terrible, but I like him as a character. I know he's nothing like his comic version, but does anybody want to hear my pitch for Shang-Chi 2: Agents of Atlas?
   
   
3. Over-thinking things, I feel like they’ve gone overboard with the casual use of giant ants. Like, Scott passes out when he grows to 10x his regular height. What multiple of their regular size is a 4’ ant? (It’s 50. The answer is 50x)
   
   
4. Sonny Birch is a really weak 2nd villain. I can see the interest in having him for this story, but he’s just a joke. He feels more time wasting than threatening. At no point did I feel he was an equal leg of the 3-way struggle for the shrunken lab. They really had to lean into Scott's suit not working properly to keep him from getting bitch-slapped right at the start.
   
   
5. I remember hearing that the Ghost was going to be the villain for this movie and it seemed like such a great match-up. A phaser feels like a comparable power to a shrinker, and isn’t just a copy of the hero’s power but evil. And the visual for the quantum phasing effect is so great. It’s clearly not so much that she’s going thru stuff, but that she’s alternating between states where the object isn’t there. Like when she comes charging out of the lab and one of her ghost images is clearly throwing open the doors she's phasing through. I don't recall seeing the same attention in the Thunderbolts movie, which is a shame.
   
   
6. Thirty minutes in and I am so tired of them just putting the word “quantum” in front of things. Quantum entanglement, quantum phasing, quantum spectrometer.
   
   
7. I don’t know how necessary the whole “can’t control his size in the elementary school” sequence was. They made up some hoops about them needing a part from the suit that Scott hid in a trophy that his daughter took to school, but when it came time to jump through those hoops, it was pretty tepid. I feel like it could’ve been a fun heist sequence if there were students and staff around, but it was really just a padded out sequence that didn’t really land with me. And ended with what should’ve looked like a 6-year-old running out of the school unaccompanied and jumping into a suspicious waiting van.
   
   
8. I’m still kind of annoyed by how perfect Hope is. She’s literally the best at everything and makes no mistakes ever. That may be part of the problem I have with Sonny. She takes out his goons with almost no effort every time.
   
   
9. Minor point, but Scott telling Luis where he was with the lab would feel a lot less forced if we knew before that moment the company was going to go out of business if they didn’t land that contract. For such a significant plot point, it’s worth getting right.
   
   
10. The little actor playing Cassie is so good. It’s a shame this is the last time we see her in this role.
    
    
11. Given that we were all told that the quantum realm is beyond time, I was really expecting a 30-year-old Michelle Pfeiffer at the end.
    
    
12. This movie is really pretty good, but gets dumb in a hurry right at the end. Ava needs to “absorb” Janet’s “quantum” energy to “rebuild” her molecules, but Janet has “evolved” to be able to just “project” “quantum energy” so everybody lives. Story-wise, I know they needed an either/or scenario where Ava had to sacrifice Janet to save herself, but it feels like that's as far as they thought on it.
    
    
13. Based on Luis’ earlier statements of wanting a super-suit, I was really hoping it was going to be him in the giant Ant-Man suit when Wu catches up with him. But no, just filled with air.
    
    
14. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the shrunken scenes aren't as good as they were in the first movie. Like, the fight in the kitchen should've been great, with lots of kitchen utensils and stuff, but I didn't get the same feel that Wasp was *in* that element as much as I did seeing Ant-Man in the first movie running up the barrel of a gun. Not sure I'm explaining it right, but they didn't blend the tiny people with the big world as well. They *looked* small, but they didn't *feel* small.

Not much to summarize. I still like the movie, but it doesn't do anything better than the first one. The addition of Jimmy Woo is a net plus, and the dynamic between the shrinkers vs the phaser is visually fun.

I'd have a hard time arguing that Ant-Man was the lead hero here, though. Like, the villains are all tied to Hope and Hank, as is the goal to rescue Janet. You can't even say that Scott brings Woo to the party, because he's hunting for Hank and Hope as well. There was a sweet little scene where Scott talks to Cassie about picking his partner, but I don't really feel like he's the one making the decision there.