U.S. Politics

Damien said:
I know I'm not saying anything novel here; but history will be ruthlessly disgusted with us for the fact that, in this age of information, we are STILL just sitting by and watching a genocide happen while not just doing nothing, but with more than half of the politicians of our country in favor of it, and with our country actively participating in it by supplying the weapons that are doing it.

We are truly lost.
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I have some friends (of maybe ex-friends, not sure yet) with opinions on the Israel-Palestine thing that diverge from mine. they detest Netanyahu's government and as far as I can surmise are not 'genocidally minded' people. (and are not Trump voters either if that's relevant)

but I know that they are also the kind of people who always have the harshest criticism (at least on public-facing social media) for critics of Israel. because no matter what you still have to believe in the dream that Israel represents. I know they believe that defending Israel, which I guess also means the material reality of a Jewish nation-state, is inseparable from Judaism. if I was still in contact with them, I'd probably counter that it's the unapologetic genocidaires that are the most clear-eyed about the price of keeping that land.

I know a lot of this winds back to the memory of the Holocaust and the need for Jews to feel safe and not allow themselves to be victims; I know they do not want to hear any opinions from a goy like me about how they should feel as a Jew living in 21st century America.
 
The whole Palestinian genocide issue is a great example of why, regardless of which nation or why it exists, nationalism itself is absolutely always evil and must always be opposed. There is no “good nationalism”. And there never has been. If you are “I support [insert country] no matter what and believe in its [symbolic or actual] superiority”, you are already fucked. I don’t care if that country is Israel, the U.S., or fucking Canada.

If you are a nationalist, you are the Bad Guy.
 
Oh, I know what you mean, and having Jewish heritage it's hard to articulate my rather conflicted thoughts on the matter. I always state that I believe in the concept of Israel, but that doesn't mean I condone the actions of the government of Israel. Of course, the same holds true of my thoughts on the US. I believe in the principles of the United States, even if our government rarely adheres to them.
 
AceofKnaves said:
The whole Palestinian genocide issue is a great example of why, regardless of which nation or why it exists, nationalism itself is absolutely always evil and must always be opposed. There is no “good nationalism”. And there never has been. If you are “I support [insert country] no matter what and believe in its [symbolic or actual] superiority”, you are already fucked. I don’t care if that country is Israel, the U.S., or fucking Canada.

If you are a nationalist, you are the Bad Guy.
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I'm gonna actually you a little, and I am sorry for it. It's just funny to me because a couple of words that mean one thing in America mean something very different in Ireland, and it's still not something I'm used to. An Irish Nationalist always meant someone who believed Ireland should be ruled by the indigenous Irish population, rather than the British government. THOUGH... I wouldn't be surprised, given the rise of xenophobia there, if the term has come to mean something a little closer to what we think of it as here. The other word that means something else there is Republican, which is kinda the same concept as Irish Nationalism. And even in Northern Ireland, which remained part of the UK after the Republic of Ireland got independence a hundred years ago, Nationalists/Republicans are the people, majority Catholic, who want a united Ireland, while Unionists/Loyalists, majority Protestant, are the ones who see themselves as firmly British (probably in a lot of cases more patriotic than people actually living in England) and wish to remain part of the UK. The terms are still jarring to me though, heh.

But to bring it back to Palestine, I know I mentioned it before, but there were SOOOO many flags all around Northern Ireland and the ROI supporting Palestinians.


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Ru1977 said:
An Irish Nationalist always meant someone who believed Ireland should be ruled by the indigenous Irish population, rather than the British government.
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They need to find a better name, then.

“nationalism, ideology based on the premise that the individual’s loyalty and devotion to the nation-state surpass other individual or group interests.” -Encyclopedia Brittanica

Yeah, that’s always evil. And if that’s what Irish Nationalism is, then it also sucks, and I say that as an ethnic Irish person who thinks the English should be removed by any means necessary.
 
That's fine, I think it started as a movement in the 1700s, maybe even inspired by the American Revolution, but was essentially 'get the brits out'.
 
Yeah . . . pretty much any political movement from the 1700s is gonna need a name-change *at least*.

Honestly, we shouldn’t be whole-cloth holding onto *any* ideology from another century. That’s the problem in essence: we continually capitulate to peer pressure from dead people rather than dealing with current issues in a current way with current tools. The past is killing us. We need to let it go.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Yeah . . . pretty much any political movement from the 1700s is gonna need a name-change *at least*.
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Fair enough. And I concede Nationalism, even if best intentioned initially, leads to something terrible.
AceofKnaves said:
Honestly, we shouldn’t be whole-cloth holding onto *any* ideology from another century. That’s the problem in essence: we continually capitulate to peer pressure from dead people rather than dealing with current issues in a current way with current tools. The past is killing us. We need to let it go.
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I was reminded of this whole bit from Thomas Jefferson:

What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.
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Sigh.

Jefferson has some amazing things to say, that are unfortunately invalidated for me personally because he was a disgusting slaver and rapist. Talk to me about the “tree of liberty” when you aren’t hanging people from it, JEFF.

But the good points do stand.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Sigh.

Jefferson has some amazing things to say, that are unfortunately invalidated for me personally because he was a disgusting slaver and rapist. Talk to me about the “tree of liberty” when you aren’t hanging people from it, JEFF.

But the good points do stand.
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Yeah, I almost prefaced with a whole, "I know..." He had amazing things to say, but I absolutely wouldn't argue for him not being a piece of shit. Kinda like how I feel guilty still laughing at some of Bill Cosby's stories about his children.
 
I really can't wrap my head around the folks that feel that if you criticize the government than you're criticizing the country. At least in the U.S. no one can say they've been behind all the actions the government took for the past decade as it has flip flopped, but somehow people cling to the idea. Adding religion and ethnicity into the mix is beyond bizarre to me. There's no way to be critical of a person in government without also being anti-nation-ethnicity-religion? It's bonkers.
 
It's true.

It's like how my wife is the person I trust THE MOST. Yes my mom thinks the sun shines out my ass and always has my back no matter what, and that's wonderful, but I know my wife will always let me know when I've gone too far or what have you. That's the way citizens need to love their country too.
 
Even further:
I simply don’t give a fuck about “countries”.
I care about people.
I literally do not give a shit about imaginary lines on an imaginary map.
I have absolutely zero loyalty to the *concept* of countries, let alone loyalty to an individual country.
 
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