The Official AT Wrestling Thread

[fac]

Isn't that akin to saying that it's only worth asking a company not to pollute our air if pollution can be solved by stopping that ONE company from doing it?

No, I don't think it is, because each company polluting is adding to the pollution, so that is a direct impact. If the Saudis were executing some infidels only because the WWE was doing a show, that would be a different story.

But the show had very little build, terrible storylines, a major injury causing last minute re-writes, and the whole thing was rushed out just to counter-program AEW because WWE is full of whiny man-babies with constant snuffling noses and tears in their eyes if other wrestling promotions try to exist.

I liked it as well. Sometimes I think I enjoy the shows where I am less invested in a particular outcome (which sometimes happens in shows with a weaker build), so I can sort of just relax and not be overthinking it (like when is so and so running in, or how they wouldn't do X because of rumors about Y, and so on) or wanting a particular booking decision.

Haven't finished AEW All-In yet. That's a fucking long ass show and I don't ever have 6 hours of sitting time all at once like... ever.

I have just seen highlights. As I've said before, I do not enjoy watching people stab each other with forks, and I find it more absurd that they then do wrestling moves. Glad Moxley was dethroned but Hangman doesn't do much for me either. But yeah, I don't see the appeal of 6 hrs of just about anything.

I also have to say I am not a fan of Toni Storm's character, and generally the way AEW seems to be leaning into using Lesbian/sexual themes mostly in line with a stereotypical male fantasy of women wrestling with her - did not think it was a good look to have her appear to take liberties with Mercedes during the match and then reference it in the press conference as a joke. Not being prudish (I don't think) and obviously wrestling is filled with attractive athletic performers and the industry leans into that, but I don't know, maybe overthinking it, but it seems like a step backwards to me for the women.

 

[fac]

Just saw the trailer for WWE Unreal. I am curious about this show, nor sure I am curious enough to get Netflix, but the concept is interesting - I honestly don't want to know too much backstage stuff that impacts current or upcoming stories, but am curious about how things impacted the past. So this to me as a "one and done" docuseries about the WWE for a few months seems like it might scratch that itch about seeing how it all comes together.

 

[Damien]

No, I don't think it is, because each company polluting is adding to the pollution, so that is a direct impact. If the Saudis were executing some infidels only because the WWE was doing a show, that would be a different story.

Both are examples of direct impact. A company polluting isn't the only source of pollution. WWE sanitizing SA and making engagement with their government more attractive to others isn't solely responsible for human rights violations in SA, but they -are- complicit. If we can only point to the ONE thing responsible for problems, then nothing is ever responsible. If only doing the thing that will completely solve the problem is worth doing, then nothing is worth doing.

I liked it as well. Sometimes I think I enjoy the shows where I am less invested in a particular outcome (which sometimes happens in shows with a weaker build), so I can sort of just relax and not be overthinking it (like when is so and so running in, or how they wouldn't do X because of rumors about Y, and so on) or wanting a particular booking decision.

Very fair. I definitely didn't care nearly as much as usual who won these matches, so I could sit back and just enjoy them more. That's a good point. But also, in hindsight after the show, I think pretty much every match went the way it -should- have went, which is such a rarity in WWE.

I have just seen highlights. As I've said before, I do not enjoy watching people stab each other with forks, and I find it more absurd that they then do wrestling moves. Glad Moxley was dethroned but Hangman doesn't do much for me either. But yeah, I don't see the appeal of 6 hrs of just about anything.

I finished it the night before last (yeah, it took me a while). As is typical with AEW's bigger PPVs, I think All In was absolutely solid. Really good matches pretty much top to bottom. The big exception for me is, of course, Mox. Within what.. 4 minutes he was bleeding? I know I know.. the whole point of this type of match is that they're going to be bloody and old school ECW in most ways. But, as you and I have agreed on a hundred times already; I just think these types of matches are shit. I have no interest watching guys get face-planted on a board covered in nails. It's awful.
I've said before that I have never liked Mox at any point in his career. I don't understand the devotion some wrestling fans have toward him. He's not even GOOD. Take away the bloodsport nonsense and he's boring as shit and tries way too hard to look like a tough guy all the time. He's the kid at school that beat up a bunch of kids behind a 7-11, but you wouldn't know them because they go to a different school. Like. .yeah, I'm super impressed Mox. Go away.

and generally the way AEW seems to be leaning into using Lesbian/sexual themes mostly in line with a stereotypical male fantasy of women wrestling with her

I don't think this is AEW. To be fair, my understanding is that Toni has LOTS of creative control over her character and this is how she wanted to go with it. I also -believe- any liberties she takes in the ring with the other girls are discussed beforehand. Toni is, apparently, an extremely careful co-worker when it comes to that. Again, just to my understanding.

I've heard the 'step backwards for women' thing a couple of times concerning this type of stuff (and people lamenting that the girls still often wear revealing outfits) and I think the difference here is that there's a CHOICE. It's not women being told to crawl on their hands and knees and eat dogfood, or being forced to go out and strip-dance or be fired. Women are in control of their characters more than ever. Some are more sexual because they -want- to be, and I think that's fine. It's all about who is making the decisions.

Just saw the trailer for WWE Unreal. I am curious about this show, nor sure I am curious enough to get Netflix, but the concept is interesting - I honestly don't want to know too much backstage stuff that impacts current or upcoming stories, but am curious about how things impacted the past. So this to me as a "one and done" docuseries about the WWE for a few months seems like it might scratch that itch about seeing how it all comes together.

So.. super weird; I loved the AEW show that did all the backstage stuff, and I always liked the snippets we'd get of 'real life behind the curtain' in stuff like Total Divas (which was mostly nonsense, of course - but the actual stuff that happened backstage usually wasn't). But also I'm really skeptical of WWE putting out a show where it's like "it's all a work!" I don't know why.

 

[fac]

I don't think this is AEW. To be fair, my understanding is that Toni has LOTS of creative control over her character and this is how she wanted to go with it. I also -believe- any liberties she takes in the ring with the other girls are discussed beforehand. Toni is, apparently, an extremely careful co-worker when it comes to that. Again, just to my understanding.

I've heard the 'step backwards for women' thing a couple of times concerning this type of stuff (and people lamenting that the girls still often wear revealing outfits) and I think the difference here is that there's a CHOICE.

So I am sure it is all worked out and wasn't suggesting it wasn't or she was being unprofessional. I just feel like a) it is pandering to some of the more social misfits that attend these shows, who already look at the women as objects and are less then respectful to them (I say this as someone who willingly admits that the attractiveness of many of the female wrestlers is part of the overall "entertainment factor" and interest in the product, but I feel that's a slightly different thing and part of the show, the same way I assume the male wrestlers appearance is of feature to many fans) and b) while it is likely Toni's choice, I think if that continues to make her popular it can put pressure on the other women to be more risqué, even if they don't want to be - which is why I think as management you need to think about that. And also to be clear I have the same problem with all wrestlers feeling they need to do risky spots to get attention because those spots have gotten others over.

Speaking of which, saw this at Cageside Seats: "Ospreay said he’d been hiding a neck issue from AEW medical, and that when he was taken to the hospital in Texas they discovered that discs around his C2 and C6 vertebrae have herniated and “gone into” his spinal cord." I hope he is taking this seriously, bad enough if this is true that he hid it, but why send him out there to admit it on TV, which feeds into some "I've been risking my long term health, possibly death or paralysis, to entertain you" BS that once again certain fans seem to eat up and cheer for.

And yes, as I wrote both of those, it did occur to me that maybe I am just old....

 

[Misfit]

So I see Hulk Hogan has died. If I were still 8 I'd be pretty sad, but now...

 

[yojoebro82]

I'm going to separate the artist from the man then be on my way.

Haven't watched wrestling in 25 years.

Hogan and the Rock were my two all time favorites.

I can say during my time watching that Hogan was a master at his craft. I loved watching his matches and the energy he brought to his interviews. Adolescent me got a real kick out of it.

I appreciate your work, Hulkster.

 

[fac]

Rumors that he as in very bad shape had been making the rounds the last few weeks, but was being denied by his closest friends just yesterday. He recently underwent Anterior Cervical Discectomy and Fusion (ACDF) but reading up on that it seems that serious complications are rare.

 

[Damien]

I just feel like a) it is pandering to some of the more social misfits that attend these shows, who already look at the women as objects and are less then respectful to them

I think that's partly true. I think you can do things because they're cool, or funny, or dramatic, or unexpected AND be pandering to one group or another. We can make (and you and I, I think, have made) the argument that the crazier spots common to modern wrestling are pandering to the weird wrestling fans that wouldn't care if someone died, while also sometimes still being really cool and dramatic and fun to see.
I wouldn't want to see, for example, female wrestlers feeling like they -can't- wear certain things just because some gross fans are going to post pictures of their butts online or make inappropriate comments.

b) while it is likely Toni's choice, I think if that continues to make her popular it can put pressure on the other women to be more risqué, even if they don't want to be

I'm less worried about that just because the business has opened up so much in terms of different types of personalities. It may encourage women to do that if they want to, but I think there's enough big names out there doing totally different things that you'd have to put serious blinders on, as a female talent, to think 'be like Toni' is the best way to get ahead. Mone' makes more than Toni does. Rhea is the top female player in WWE and she's more terrifying than sexual. What I like about Toni's gimmick is kind of the opposite of what you're saying; I feel like it gives performers permission to be weird, crazy, and even sexual if it makes sense for their character without the fear of being compared to the bad old days of bikini contests and evening gown matches.

Speaking of which, saw this at Cageside Seats: "Ospreay said he’d been hiding a neck issue from AEW medical, and that when he was taken to the hospital in Texas they discovered that discs around his C2 and C6 vertebrae have herniated and “gone into” his spinal cord." I hope he is taking this seriously, bad enough if this is true that he hid it, but why send him out there to admit it on TV, which feeds into some "I've been risking my long term health, possibly death or paralysis, to entertain you" BS that once again certain fans seem to eat up and cheer for.

Yeah, this bothers me a lot. The hope is that, even if just backstage, this gets strongly condemned and even puts Ospreay out for a good chunk of time. Not because I want him seriously hurt, but because it's a good reminder for the other talent that hiding injures to maintain your spot can just result in you losing a lot more time than you otherwise might have.

So I see Hulk Hogan has died. If I were still 8 I'd be pretty sad, but now...

He made his bed.

I respect the fact that for some people the character Hulk Hogan played on TV was really impactful for them. But the reality is that the real person behind Hulk Hogan was the scum that grows beneath scum and the world is better without him in it.

 

[Misfit]

I was a little Hulkamaniac back in the day, loved Warrior too, but once I hit adulthood and learned what these guys were really all about I had to turn the page. It sucks that a lot of guys from that era are just bad guys.

 

[Damien]

I was a little Hulkamaniac back in the day, loved Warrior too, but once I hit adulthood and learned what these guys were really all about I had to turn the page. It sucks that a lot of guys from that era are just bad guys.

Except the Bad Guy. He was a pretty good guy.

 

[fac]

I have been fascinated by some of the mainstream media coverage of Hogan/Bollea. The national news has reported on it extensively, but many of the stories had things like "his greatest moment was bodyslamming Andre the Giant" and "winning X WWF championships" in a way that seemed like there was real "Hulk Hogan" who actually accomplished that in a non-scripted world - this to me would be like reporting on, say, Harrison Ford's death by saying his greatest moment was when he kept the Nazis from getting the Ark of the Covenant. Its like even the media has conflated the Hogan character with Bollea the person to the point they don't distinguish between his real biography and character biography.

I understand people know the character, people know him as "Hulk Hogan", and in his public appearances he often portrayed the character (or at least leaned into it) but it was still a character with scripted success, catchphrases, mannerisms, etc. - even if much of it might have been Bollea turned up to 11. Kind of bugged me that they didn't all really stress that "the man behind the Hulk Hogan character, Terry Bollea, has died" but kept saying that "Hulk Hogan" had died. I don't think its a small thing, because I think Damien put it well, the character of Hogan was idolized by many, but he was a character.

I may not be explaining it well, and granted, I am not sure how the media could communicate it better, but it came across as really odd to me more than once the last couple of days.

 

[Damien]

No, I agree with that. Actual wrestlers and wrestling channels have been far better about adding the nuance. Even then it's divisive; Chelsea Green was getting fucking death threats from both sides for her reaction to his death just because she was clearly mourning what he meant to wrestling, not who he was as a person.

I'd like to attribute the media coverage to just reporters that are on a time crunch trying to appeal to regular people that only know him as 'Hulk Hogan.' Plenty of people think that IS his real name and that he IS his character already. But the job of the media isn't to lean into what you already think you know. So it's disappointing to see them just pretend Hulk Hogan was a real person with real accomplishments. Definitely agree with that.

Also disappointing that virtually none of the mainstream media has the guts to point out who Terry really was as a person.

 

[fac]

The people going after Chelsea Green for not talking more about his issues to me are just showing they have never had to be a public facing person representing a company and talking about their coworkers.

I worked and collaborated with some very big names in my field for most of my career, people who literally wrote the books and were the keynote speakers and experts and professional organization leaders and what not - most were great humans and colleagues as well as being key contributors, but a few were not.

If someone, especially from the media but anyone in the field that didn't know them personally, would ask me about some of them (especially while I was still employed at the same company), I wouldn't lead off with "I don't like how they bully and mistreat the support staff at times" or "The guy is a pig who openly cheats on his wife at these conferences and its pathetic as she is also a colleague whom we all respect" even if that was the truth, because I would assume the question was about their contributions to the field. If someone was talking to me more informally, about maybe working with or for them, or about their professionalism, I would have discreetly stated that I wasn't a fan of them personally and maybe gone from there. But no reasonable person is going to be interviewed on live TV about a colleague as part of a tribute to their contributions to their field and pull out all the dirty laundry.

 

[Damien]

100%
I can see the argument that maybe Chelsea should not have said anything at all (she made a post, after all, she wasn't responding to a question) about Hogan if she wasn't willing to take the 'his legacy is complicated' kind of spin on her message. But even if you believe that, the idea of sending someone death threats or calling them vile names because they just said something as fucking milquetoast as 'he meant a lot to the business' should be unconscionable. I probably have the biggest hate-on for Hogan of anyone on this forum and I can't IMAGINE even sending death threats to someone here that says 'I don't care what he did' - which ISN'T what Chelsea said. So... I dunno man. It's fucked. I feel terrible for her.

 

[fac]

I can see the argument that maybe Chelsea should not have said anything at all (she made a post, after all, she wasn't responding to a question)

She was live interviewed (presumably at WWE's request) on CBS a few hours after his death was announced - https://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2...rview-positive-comments-hulk-hogan-wwe-racism), and led off the segment with "apart from polarizing political views" which was I think her deftly saying "I don't agree with some of his comments and behavior, but not talking about that now".

And it isn't as if the interviewer then asked her "What were his polarized political positions you mentioned?" and she ignored the question, they didn't follow up on that at all and she answered puff piece questions about his importance to the company and his persona and so on.