Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

Well, okay, but doesn't being a weird baby mean you're not that smart? I mean the man blew his whole face off. Reed DID try and warn him his equations were off, but did he listen? If he had, he wouldn't be the man in the iron mask.

And how come Doom hasn't conquered the world yet? He's been around since Fantastic Four number 5, and he's had his ass handed to him by everyone from the Avengers to the X-Men. Hell, even Squirrel Girl beat the shit out of him a few times.

Do NOT get me wrong. I think Doctor Doom is a great villain and a very compelling character. After I read his origin, I felt sorry for him so I do sympathize with him a little bit. He is a multi-faceted and complex character for sure. If I had to make a list of the top ten villains in the Marvel Universe, Doctor Doom would be number one. I'm so glad Marvel Studios has the rights to him now so hopefully we'll see a Doctor Doom on the big screen that's accurate to the source material.

I don't know, I haven't been keeping up with comics as much the past few years, but in the time I've been reading them, Doom and Reed have been consistently portrayed as two of the most intelligent individuals in the Marvel universe, with Reed being the smartest of the two. That rivalry fuels Doom's hatred. He can't stand being intellectually inferior to Reed. That's why he's always going after the Fantastic Four. Maybe that's changed, I don't know.

It's cool. I still love you @AceofKnaves. You're still my ride or die.
 
AceofKnaves said:
This I actually disagree with.
I think Doom is WAY smarter and absolutely more of a polymath, which makes his insane adversarial envy even more operatically bonkers. I think the whole conceit revolves around the fact that Doom could do basically *anything* if he just stopped being a weird baby about Reed Richards.
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There's a bit of the Lex/Clark parallel to that, too - "You know, you could change the world TOO if you weren't so petty." I think that's why "evil Reed" kinda shoots the equation in the tire. Doom is smart enough to be both Sorcerer Supreme AND Scientist Supreme, to run a country and alter reality, but Reed is loved instead of feared, and Doom can't stand it. Or maybe struggles to UNDERstand it. I like their rivalry as almost "I could be you, if only..." and that "if only" is "I was a better man."
 
docsilence said:
Doom is smart enough to be both Sorcerer Supreme AND Scientist Supreme, to run a country and alter reality, but Reed is loved instead of feared, and Doom can't stand it. Or maybe struggles to UNDERstand it.
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BINGO.
 
SDcomics said:
Marvel Studios needs a hit. I'm not sure why more people didn't go see Thunderbolts but they didn't and that's that.
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I could probably write a dissertation on this, but you'll have to settle for two points.

1) The MCU has been aimless since Endgame. I have gripes with episodic, to-be-continued storytelling, but Marvel mastered it a decade ago. You had tension around team building (can they get the Avengers together? Will they stay together despite conflicting personalities? Are they enough to beat a bad motherfucker like Thanos?), you had world-altering MacGuffins (what are these stones? Can our heroes assemble them before Thanos?), and you had a big bad working behind the scenes (Who is that? What's he up to? Our heroes just struggled to beat Loki/Ultron, what can they do against him??).

Phases 4, 5, and 6 have had almost none of that. They alluded to Kang, but even that felt half-hearted compared to the original Avengers team-up and Thanos teases. Now that Jonathan Majors is off the table, they have nothing. Well, I guess they have Robert Downey Jr. That's cool if you don't think about it. At all. Disney is doing what Disney does best: nostalgia farming. The issue with nostalgia farming the MCU is that the original crop of stories only ended six years ago. Most of the original cast is still active. Their trump card was pulling their star out of retirement. It reeks of desperation.

They seemed intent on building up Endgame 2.0, only this time, they didn't feel like doing any setup. I'm skeptical that Kang/the Multiverse Saga could've worked, but they didn't even try. The Iron Man-Cap-Thor trio didn't work because they introduced 18 more heroes; it worked because they made us care about those characters. They drilled down on Iron Man and Captain America sequels. Do you care about any of the current crop as much as you cared about Iron Man, Cap, or Thor? Ant-Man, Captain Marvel, take your pick. I certainly don't. Maybe Shang-Chi could've been the next Thor. We'll never know because he's only appeared in one movie.

That leads me to 2) They won't let us play with the cool toys. Mom told your brother he has to share, but he isn't letting you play with Captain America. Nope, you can use U.S. Agent instead. I like Florence Pugh and Sebastian Stan as much as the next guy, but Black Widow Jr. and Captain America's Sidekick aren't A-list heroes. Red Guardian isn't putting butts in seats.

Kevin Feige deserves endless credit for Phases 1, 2, and 3. To say he's floundered since then would be extremely generous. The X-Men are "break glass in case of emergency" characters. Break the fucking glass, Kevin.

I don't think the MCU will ever return to its Endgame heights. They could probably get halfway or two-thirds of the way there, but not the way things are going. I've been Team Marvel for my entire life, yet I'm far more interested in what James Gunn is cooking up at DC.
 
Of course we all have our perspectives and likes etc, but for me... phases 4-6 weren't as good as 1-3, but really just barely. I don't need these new characters to replace the originals, but a lot of them I enjoy for how they aren't like the originals. I LOVE Pugh. Shang Chi was fun, Ms. Marvel is one of my favorite characters across the board, I've also enjoyed Bucky and his journey, US Agent is a tragic dick and I appreciate that he isn't Steve, and Sentry was way more interesting than I expected. If nothing else, a lot of the movies the last few years were fun, with a few I genuinely enjoyed for some depth. There were a few I really didn't like but I'm coming around to giving them another chance, and there were several sincere standouts, even on Disney Plus. Again, I know I liked some others really didn't (She-Hulk, Ms Marvel, Eternals), but everytime I look at all the releases since 2020, I am again reminded that I enjoyed quite a few of them. At the same time, there are less hits in the first phases, phase one in particular, for me than most people seem to think. Even the ones I'm not super fond of are entertaining at least, and that's the same for me with the recent bunch.
 
Yeah, I don't want to yuck anyone's yum. If the MCU is still working for you, great.

For the record, She-Hulk is probably my favorite MCU thing since Endgame. I hope they bring Maslany back.
 
I just hope the rumors of more monsters/supernatural stuff are true. Werewolf by Night is my favorite MCU thing, period (followed by She-Hulk and Moon Knight, so actually all my absolute favorites are post-Endgame), and I really really REALLY want more of the classic 70s monsters brought out in that groovy retro-creepy style.
 
I love how much Vincent and Charlie support this show and these characters. We really got so lucky they cast them so well.
 
It better be good, he and Bernthal had to cancel their Motor City Comic Con appearance for the reshoots :p My sis and were going to go mainly for them.
 
TheSameIdiot said:
Phases 4, 5, and 6 have had almost none of that.
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While I agree, I give them a little leeway as they had both the pandemic and the strike impact their plans, plus the whole Jonathan Majors debacle, and I think that caused a loss of momentum by impacting the schedule of how things were going to be released, and the connective tissue across the products. I think the D+ shows being integrated turned out to be a mistake as it was too much to juggle.

TheSameIdiot said:
The Iron Man-Cap-Thor trio didn't work because they introduced 18 more heroes; it worked because they made us care about those characters.
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I've said before, they really struck gold with the actors in those roles all having the needed charisma to control the screen, and both Cap and Tony had true story arcs - Thor had one but as we were discussing in Fletch's rewatch thread, the last two films undermined the emotional beats to the point they didn't land as they could have, which is Thor maturing and raising a daughter and being the noble hero he ought to be, although I still think he needs to reclaim the Asgard throne at some point and take over the pantheon from Zeus.

TheSameIdiot said:
Nope, you can use U.S. Agent instead. I like Florence Pugh and Sebastian Stan as much as the next guy, but Black Widow Jr. and Captain America's Sidekick aren't A-list heroes. Red Guardian isn't putting butts in seats.
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Some of their issue is that the more charismatic actors at this point are the leading women, yet their movies and shows have not performed as well, and I wonder if that has caused changes in plans as to what they are focusing on.

TheSameIdiot said:
I don't think the MCU will ever return to its Endgame heights.
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I think the mistake is in trying - I think they need to tighten it up to 4-5 films over 2 years being interconnected then move on, each "Phase" is its own crossover event.

But in Feige's defense, it is unchartered waters to have nearly 40 films in a "series" like this (plus TV) over nearly 20 years and keep that interest level high. We'll see how Gunn's DCU is fairing 2042 with films built around the Metal Men, Elongated Man, Huntress and Speedy instead of aged-out Bats, Supes and WW.
 
fac said:
pandemic and the strike impact their plans, plus the whole Jonathan Majors debacle, and I think that caused a loss of momentum by impacting the schedule of how things were going to be released, and the connective tissue across the products. I think the D+ shows being integrated turned out to be a mistake as it was too much to juggle.
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Definitely. What took four years (which really... Is still not a long time) was originally planned to happen sooner and tighter. So I guess it's really six years.
fac said:
the mistake is in trying - I think they need to tighten it up to 4-5 films over 2 years being interconnected then move on, each "Phase" is its own crossover event.
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I definitely agree.
fac said:
We'll see how Gunn's DCU is fairing 2042 with films built around the Metal Men, Elongated Man, Huntress and Speedy instead of aged-out Bats, Supes and WW.
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Really good point. Please, no one take this as an attack on Gunn, DC, or anything, but no one was screaming excitedly about how successful the MCU was definitely going to be in 2008.
 
Yeah, there's a TON of valid criticism of the MCU, but one thing it's gotta be given some leniency on is knowing how to handle a twenty year, interwoven cinematic universe. Even long-running franchises like Star Trek had long years between movies, and stuff like Bond got a reboot every few films. And every attempt at replicating what Marvel built has failed. It may honestly be hitting its unsustainable moment (please don't do that til we get a proper set of F4 films and finish Born Again, plz) but it may just be a once in an industry's lifetime juggernaut that just had everything fall into place in the right way.

Also, sadly, the audience has become so voracious that it can't do a Star Wars and take 15 years to reset. It's sort of a perpetual motion machine.
 
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