The Official AT Wrestling Thread

[Damien]

Thought we had one of these carried over from Fwoosh, but maybe not so here we go. Let's see if we've carried over some sweaty underwear soap opera fans.

First thing I really have to say is.... fucking Naomi? Literally the least over, worst wrestler in the match. What the fuck, WWE? What the fuck?

 

[fac]

Naomi has been pretty solid in the heel role recently. Given you have two faces holding the Women's titles I think a heel had to win. So she can either be thwarted by Jade or Bianca when she tries to cash in, or she can win the title and she has three ready to go feuds - those two plus whoever she beats.

While I think HHH takes too long on his feuds and title reigns at times, I do think he gets it right to have the "new kids" struggle a bit against the veterans, so not sure it was time for Roxanne or Giulia or Vaquer to get that title shot as are any of them ready to hold that for a long period? I think Tiffy is going OK but she isn't guite yet there as being smooth on the mic and her character is not really a face character. I think the briefcase is wasted on established folks such as Rhea and Alexa who can, in wrestling logic, get a title shot almost anytime they want from the GM or from challenging someone. So I was fine with Naomi.

In other topics:

The Cena turn has been done OK (apart from the Rock part) but the problem is too many fans just like Cena and refuse to boo him in person. If they did his entrance with no music, no stop to show the merchandise off, no fancy tron, it would help a lot - he needs to ignore the crowd and seem apathetic and arrogant at the same time. Why have him have a tiff with Logan Paul mid-match? That was odd as the fans will side with Cena and not Paul 99% of the time, so him being annoyed by Paul was a face move.

Odd they had Gunther tap to Jey, but I also thought that they shouldn't have had Gunther lose to Cody last year either - I liked the idea that Cody might not be able to beat Gunther so that when the time came their feud might have more juice. I thought they had a chance at Gunther being the thorn in Cody's side for a while.

The whole Heyman goes with Seth and somehow Bron and Bronson are part of the team hasn't made much sense, but I don't get to see more than RAW highlights so maybe its better than I think. Seth works best on his own I think. I'd have had just had Heyman walk out on Roman (for ghosting him and leaving him to die from Solo/Fatu), and Punk (for abandoning him and trying to use his friendship), and say Seth is no better (for trying to bully him), and declare he is going with the next big thing - Bron - because he is tired of those three using him and wants them to be humbled.

HHH to me has dragged some things out too long - Judgement Day should have imploded by now, and they had the fans ready to despise New Day as heel champs after they dumped on Big E and dropped the ball there.

WWE storylines too often drag things out, like a live concert where the band jams just a bit too long to drag out their hit songs - at first its cool to go a bit deeper, but then it overstays its welcome when it turns a 3 minute hit into a 15 minute opus...

 

[Damien]

Naomi has been pretty solid in the heel role recently. Given you have two faces holding the Women's titles I think a heel had to win. So she can either be thwarted by Jade or Bianca when she tries to cash in, or she can win the title and she has three ready to go feuds - those two plus whoever she beats.

I get where you're coming from but.. meh. I don't even think Naomi should have been in the match, because I think she's kind of a shit wrestler. Has she pulled off 'bad guy' decently well? Yeah, absolutely. But that's not an aberration. Seems like 'be a dickhead' is easy mode for wrestlers.
What I'm not seeing is much chatter about her, or much reaction over her. I don't think people care about Naomi. Even the crowd reaction to her winning felt a lot like the wind was let out of the building. A lot of 'well... okay, I guess.' She was in a match stacked with talented girls that fans are reacting very strongly to, and the cardboard cutout of a bad guy that can barely actually wrestle is the winner. It feels very Vince.

And I think we're past the idea of pretending wrestlers don't have any experience if it wasn't in WWE. Every woman in that ring has more career accomplishments and more recognized, documented talent than Naomi except Perez. Stephanie Vaquer is literally the veteran in a match with Naomi. Steph and Naomi started wrestling in the same year (2009), but Stephanie was an actual wrestler for the entire time, instead of spending 50% of that career dancing, being a valet, or maybe wrestling once every three or four weeks.
I don't mean that in an aggressive way or to be argumentative. But I don't like towing the line that if you're not in WWE, your time as a wrestler doesn't count.
Really, too, at some point 'veteran' status isn't relevant. There isn't a lot of qualitative difference between a 'veteran' of 7 years and a 'veteran' of 13 years, for example. At some point you just know how to do your job. By that logic, everyone in the match was a veteran (except maybe Perez) and Naomi just happened to be the least over and least talented of all of them.

If it were up to me, which obviously it isn't, I think Giulia goes over as a heel. Or even Roxanne Perez. Build up credible threats that fans are getting behind (to love or to hate). I don't actually like the idea of MitB, to be honest. But if we're stuck with it, I feel like using it effectively means building talent with it.

The Cena turn has been done OK (apart from the Rock part) but the problem is too many fans just like Cena and refuse to boo him in person. If they did his entrance with no music, no stop to show the merchandise off, no fancy tron, it would help a lot - he needs to ignore the crowd and seem apathetic and arrogant at the same time. Why have him have a tiff with Logan Paul mid-match? That was odd as the fans will side with Cena and not Paul 99% of the time, so him being annoyed by Paul was a face move.

I think they're going to pivot away from Heel Cena for the end of his run. This thing with the Rock was idiotic, and Rock refusing to be involved makes it even weirder and more nonsensical. I suspect they're starting to see that and need to do something here to salvage Cena's final run in the company. I think he'll go out as a face. The question is how they do it. Will he turn face, lose the title to Cody, and shake his hand and all that good guy stuff? Nothing wrong with a face-face championship match. Will he lose his title to a heel instead? Will he retire as champ? Hard to say.
The last option feels VERY Cena, but also something the business historically despises doing.


Gunther is wasted on Jey. Jey isn't a good wrestler and his weaknesses really show when he's showcased so much in singles matches. And he's not good on the mic either. Making him champ was truly a baffling decision.

The whole Heyman goes with Seth and somehow Bron and Bronson are part of the team hasn't made much sense, but I don't get to see more than RAW highlights so maybe its better than I think.

It's not. It's bad. This is 100% them throwing one guy in for muscle because they have no other use for him, and throwing Bron in there because they want him front and center but he needs to be with someone that can talk and draw heat. People like Bron, but he's one-dimensional and still seems green. So this whole group is just slapdash as fuck.

On that note.. the men's MITB match was atrocious. We got a whole like five minutes of stuff between guys that aren't even in the match. There were too many spots where the guy at the top of the ladder was visibly, obviously, stalling to give someone time to stop him. Fucking Seth's buddies cleared house and then like.. .did a bunch of other stuff until their rivals showed up, and in the amount of time they stood around they could have just stood beside the ladder while Seth climbed. It was sooooo fucking contrived.

To my mind, there also weren't enough guys in here that were credible winners. Unlike the women's match where I really could have seen anyone win except the person that did.

I'd argue MITB would be way better if the prize were something else - more like King of the Ring or the Owen Hart Cup in AEW; where the prize is bragging rights, money, a trophy, etc.
Do it on NXT and make the prize a guaranteed RAW contract for some silly amount of money or something. Making it a guaranteed anytime anywhere shot at the main company title is so limiting in who can win, and who the crowd will even believe can win.

HHH to me has dragged some things out too long - Judgement Day should have imploded by now, and they had the fans ready to despise New Day as heel champs after they dumped on Big E and dropped the ball there.

WWE storylines too often drag things out, like a live concert where the band jams just a bit too long to drag out their hit songs - at first its cool to go a bit deeper, but then it overstays its welcome when it turns a 3 minute hit into a 15 minute opus...

Agreed. We've taken a huge swing from the Vince era of not even resolving storylines at all and forgetting them in two weeks, to dragging out years-long storylines where I'm actively bored of the story when it finally resolves. Gotta get to a happy medium where we're actually moving through storylines a bit faster. If for no other reason than to highlight more wrestlers instead of having the same six guys at the top of the card, or featured weekly, for 2 straight years.

 

[fac]

And I think we're past the idea of pretending wrestlers don't have any experience if it wasn't in WWE. ....
I don't mean that in an aggressive way or to be argumentative.

But in the fictional world of WWE, they are the most prestigious promotion, so no matter how great you were somewhere else, you are now in big leagues. That's part of their storyline for the most part. I don't think they are trying to pretend the wrestlers haven't had careers elsewhere, they mention it quite often these days. But storyline-wise, I think when they bring in an Asuka or Shinsuke and have them dominate they sort of write themselves into a corner. Like what they are doing with Lyra with Becky, that works for the secondary titles, not the main titles, long term, so she has a chance to go after the main title now and have it be believable.

I think they're going to pivot away from Heel Cena for the end of his run.

I agree, that has to be the goal. I made the same argument that they were going to try to turn Roman face again before the Bloodline story ended.

I think there could be a compelling story with the Rock and Cena both dismissing Cody as "not up to their standards" - kind of build on the whole "we were real stars, you failed in WWE and had to go elsewhere, we were huge and carried the company" - focus on a whole generational/lack of respect/lack of "the good old days" dispute. That could explain Rock and Cena working together and could be played as part shoot on their success and if Cody is really that sort of star - maybe have Rock support Roman as that star, and Cena support Paul, or something like that. That could even play into Rollins and Punk being annoyed they are left out of the conversation of who is the next potential GOAT.

Gunther is wasted on Jey. Making him champ was truly a baffling decision.

People like to YEET. I am not sold on it but the reaction he gets is huge, and this is still entertainment first. I get why they did it.

On that note.. the men's MITB match was atrocious. We got a whole like five minutes of stuff between guys that aren't even in the match.

Yeah, Hunter overbooks that stuff. I disliked that as well. I think the whole "run-in" as done now needs to be revamped - it never has an never will make sense for the bad guy with the henchmen to wait 20 minutes into a match that he could have lost a half-dozen times over before they interfere. I like it when they come out and interfere immediately - it is more logical, it can create more "face in peril" moments before the comeback, or could be used to explain the loss while the face tries to tough it out.

To my mind, there also weren't enough guys in here that were credible winners. Unlike the women's match where I really could have seen anyone win except the person that did.

I thought they might go with LA Knight just to shake things up a bit. I was honestly a bit surprised because I didn't think Seth needed it.

I'd argue MITB would be way better if the prize were something else

I like the MitB concept, I think there is still alot they can do with it, but I think it would work better if the winner had maybe 3 months to cash in, not a year, and that a wrestler might cash in on say the IC champ - either because they hate the IC champ, or believe they can meet the champ. There is potential for intrigue. I think it would work great for faces chasing a heel that is ducking them to win it an challenge immediately for instance.

Agreed. We've taken a huge swing from the Vince era of not even resolving storylines at all and forgetting them in two weeks, to dragging out years-long storylines where I'm actively bored of the story when it finally resolves. Gotta get to a happy medium where we're actually moving through storylines a bit faster. If for no other reason than to highlight more wrestlers instead of having the same six guys at the top of the card, or featured weekly, for 2 straight years.

Yeah, the bench is so strong, and given it seems like they are more willing to send people off TV for a stretch, I feel they could resolve things faster and rotate in a few more storylines. That's why I am fine with Naomi and would have been fine with LA Knight as MitB holders, it changes things up a bit. and why I am OK with Zelina as US champ - as long as it doesn't last too long. But while they have done a good job of having multiple credible threats for the main titles, they still seem to do one challenger at a time for the secondary - Chelsea for instance could have had more than a couple months of Michin and then a month or so of Zelina as her only real challengers.

 

[Damien]

CM Punk is going to Saudi Arabia, just in case you thought his morals weren't just as purchasable as anyone else's. He already has proved to be less than a man of his word, so this isn't exactly surprising. But it's still disappointing.
Truth coming back as Ron Killings is really interesting and I'm excited to see where it goes. I wonder if this was Truth's idea or WWE wanting to make him a serious character so people won't be upset next time WWE wants to let him go? Maybe that's the cynic in me.
Women's Fatal 4-Way was really good.

But in the fictional world of WWE, they are the most prestigious promotion, so no matter how great you were somewhere else, you are now in big leagues. That's part of their storyline for the most part. I don't think they are trying to pretend the wrestlers haven't had careers elsewhere, they mention it quite often these days.

That's a fair point. But I think they're backing themselves into a wall. You can't celebrate someone's career outside WWE and talk about how great they are, and then treat them like they're not a veteran or are somehow less than your weakest wrestler just because they weren't in WWE. Either the career outside WWE matters or it doesn't. And it's not even equitably applied because Cody was practically a jobber in WWE and came back immediately into the title picture -because- of his time outside WWE. They can't have it both ways.
To be fair, even Naomi is mostly getting this much attention because of what she achieved outside WWE (and she only achieved that because TNA is desperate to showcase any WWE talent they get hold of).

I think there could be a compelling story with the Rock and Cena both dismissing Cody as "not up to their standards" - kind of build on the whole "we were real stars, you failed in WWE and had to go elsewhere, we were huge and carried the company" - focus on a whole generational/lack of respect/lack of "the good old days" dispute. That could explain Rock and Cena working together and could be played as part shoot on their success and if Cody is really that sort of star - maybe have Rock support Roman as that star, and Cena support Paul, or something like that. That could even play into Rollins and Punk being annoyed they are left out of the conversation of who is the next potential GOAT.

All of that requires Rock to be present. Which, clearly, he's not interested in doing. And given what an absolute twat he is, I'm actually not interested in seeing him anymore. I'd be more than happy if they dropped any mention of Rock and did the usual WWE thing of 'pretend that part of the storyline didn't happen' and move on with heel Cena just being a heel until he sees the error of his ways or whatever.

It won't happen, but I'm kind of in love with the idea of Cena turning face toward the end because of another heel just going too far -- and Cena snapping out of it and realizing he needs to help the good guys, setting himself up for a final match as a good guy. I'd also love for him to lose the title to Punk, as that seems really appropriate given their history - but I also think WWE will bitch out and never have him lose the title this early in his final run. They should though. Way more drama to drop it now and leave fans wondering 'what now?' for the remainder of his dates rather than just waiting out his matches until we know the next match is his last - because that opponent will be the new champ and we all kind of expect that.

People like to YEET. I am not sold on it but the reaction he gets is huge, and this is still entertainment first. I get why they did it.

Oh, I get that. I'm not like.. anti-fun. But R-Truth got huge pops for like a decade. People used to swing his 'Get Crunk' song before WWE caught on to what that means and changed his music. But Truth wasn't given a title run. I just don't get it with Uso. He's a C+ guy with a one-note gimmick that people like to chant. That doesn't seem like Hunter's idea of a main event star.

it never has an never will make sense for the bad guy with the henchmen to wait 20 minutes into a match that he could have lost a half-dozen times over before they interfere. I like it when they come out and interfere immediately - it is more logical, it can create more "face in peril" moments before the comeback, or could be used to explain the loss while the face tries to tough it out.

Agreed. I guess you can argue the WWE logic that the henchmen have to wait until they can be most effective rather than just interfere constantly from the start and risk being expelled from ringside before they can be effectual in the outcome. But if that's the reasoning - WWE needs to do a better job of explaining and telegraphing that.

I thought they might go with LA Knight just to shake things up a bit. I was honestly a bit surprised because I didn't think Seth needed it.

He doesn't need it - but he's also a super safe bet to just hand another WWE title run to. We know he's over. We know he draws money. We know he can be a good guy or bad guy pretty much at the drop of a hat. He's sort've the perfect guy to have just waiting in the wings to rip the title away from whoever WWE feels like taking it off of.
In fact, I'm kind of afraid he'll interfere and become champ during Cena's run and Cena will use his rematch clause to get YET ANOTHER title reign on his record before retiring.

I like the MitB concept, I think there is still alot they can do with it, but I think it would work better if the winner had maybe 3 months to cash in, not a year, and that a wrestler might cash in on say the IC champ - either because they hate the IC champ, or believe they can meet the champ. There is potential for intrigue. I think it would work great for faces chasing a heel that is ducking them to win it an challenge immediately for instance.

I don't think they'll ever do that because it devalues the main titles if anyone would willingly choose not to fight for them. Also the 3 months thing, while I don't disagree, puts them in a position of -having- to figure it in instead of playing it by ear and it takes how long it takes for the cash-in to make sense creatively.

And I'm seeing all these matches lined up and this big push to do King/Queen of the Ring and just think... THIS is so much better than MITB. It feels like it matters. The wrestlers seem to want to win this as if it's a title match. But it's not. Why does MITB need to exist when we have this tournament which is so much better and more prestigious? I'm just good with MITB not existing after this year, really. I'm over it. Bonus is that if MITB goes away, maybe we can go back to occasionally just getting a cool 1v1 or 2v2 ladder match which are, honestly, virtually always better than every MITB match ever.

But while they have done a good job of having multiple credible threats for the main titles, they still seem to do one challenger at a time for the secondary

I've noticed that too. The roster is way too deep for almost no one to be competing for the mid-level belts.

 

[fac]

Truth coming back as Ron Killings is really interesting and I'm excited to see where it goes. I wonder if this was Truth's idea or WWE wanting to make him a serious character so people won't be upset next time WWE wants to let him go? Maybe that's the cynic in me.

A plausible rumor I read is that this will be a short term run to have a proper send off, and that he wanted to promote the Ron Killings name and character in WWE before he leaves to go the indies. I know people think it was fan backlash that brought him back, but I think the locker room played a bigger role - I suspect the wrestlers are OK with not having a contract renewed the same way actors know that their character can get written off, but my guess is they disliked the idea that he wasn't going to get a good-bye/thank you moment from the crowd in a curtain call after that much time with the company. It is absolutely baffling to me that if they had intended to not renew him that they didn't make his bout against Cena a title vs WWE career match - which might have gone a long way to help Cena get over as a heel if he not only beat him but kicked him when he was down and you had the roster there upset Truth was gone, and Truth gets an ending to his run that gets attention. I really don't get it.

All of that requires Rock to be present. Which, clearly, he's not interested in doing. And given what an absolute twat he is, I'm actually not interested in seeing him anymore. I'd be more than happy if they dropped any mention of Rock and did the usual WWE thing of 'pretend that part of the storyline didn't happen' and move on with heel Cena just being a heel until he sees the error of his ways or whatever.

I assume there is going to be an interesting interview in a few years where the details on how the Rock/HHH booking fiascos really went down. But they have not been good. They managed to salvage it last year for WrestleMania but I feel like it ultimately hurt Roman Reigns as he has been an afterthought since that, I think in part because the focus shifted from him to the Rock to some extent due to the angle, and it muddied the whole Bloodline "ending" which really fizzled out I think, as Roman never had truly paid his comeuppance or copped to his behavior, one or the other was needed to have a more definitive end to the Bloodline.

It won't happen, but I'm kind of in love with the idea of Cena turning face toward the end because of another heel just going too far -- and Cena snapping out of it and realizing he needs to help the good guys, setting himself up for a final match as a good guy.

I think it will happen! He can't retire a heel. If they do have a plan, it will be for him to turn on the Rock being evil to Cody - which leaves to door a bit ajar for him being involved again (maybe not in ring but like the Undertaker popping up here and there to even things up).

I just don't get it with Uso. He's a C+ guy with a one-note gimmick that people like to chant. That doesn't seem like Hunter's idea of a main event star.

So Jey is back to being without the belt. I think that reign was the right length, and I think WWE likes to but the belt on fan favorites for a few months so that they can call them "Former World Champion" or whatever. They now have one more guy in the mix if they need him, or I am guessing reunite with Jimmy for a tag team reunion at some point.

In fact, I'm kind of afraid he'll interfere and become champ during Cena's run and Cena will use his rematch clause to get YET ANOTHER title reign on his record before retiring.

I think if they were going to do that, they'd have Randy take the title off of Cena, to make his potential of being the all-time most titles holder a possibility. I think it is a really interesting question as to who retire Cena - I think he is too big a name to get a youngster to put over, so I could see it be someone like Seth (if Cena is a face at that point) or Cody (to put Cody up on that level as the top face of the generation - which neither Reigns nor Rollins will ever be).

Also the 3 months thing, while I don't disagree, puts them in a position of -having- to figure it in instead of playing it by ear and it takes how long it takes for the cash-in to make sense creatively.

I think that would be better though - you have multiple times to get your shot (MitB, King if the Ring, Rumble, Elimination Chamber) but the clock on all of them is ticking. I actually think it would make it less obvious who was going to win each. I wish they would drop the Rumble winner from the headlining WM stip - and just be a title shot at WM, and they can decide up to the day of who they want to face. Add some intrigue. The RR telegraphs too much I think and it is too long to get to the match.

I've noticed that too. The roster is way too deep for almost no one to be competing for the mid-level belts.

I feel part of what "diminishes" those belts is the "who do we randomly make the challenger" next aspect, compared to the main titles where they do a good job of having at least a few folks who could be up next and credible.

AEW seems lost, they do Swerve vs Ospreay for 30 minutes on free TV as part of a 4 hr show - that's a PPV caliber match with that stipulation. I think Tony is convinced he wants Darby as champ so the Moxley/Deathriders slog along until that happens. They still allow stupid spots for the circumstances - Fletcher vs Cole on the apron, botch or not, safe or not, seemed pointless for a regular show. Don't get it.

 

[CTV]

Thought we had one of these carried over from Fwoosh, but maybe not so here we go. Let's see if we've carried over some sweaty underwear soap opera fans.

First thing I really have to say is.... fucking Naomi? Literally the least over, worst wrestler in the match. What the fuck, WWE? What the fuck?

We must be watching two different Naomis. She's doing the best work of her career right now and gets the reactions she's supposed to get so I'm not sure where not over is coming from either. Seth was the bigger headscratcher for me, but at this point in my life I watch [sports] entertainment media to be entertained, not nitpick everything I see on the internet so I'll see myself out. I've largely tuned out of comic and MCU "fan" discourse for the same reason.

 

[Damien]

but at this point in my life I watch [sports] entertainment media to be entertained, not nitpick everything I see on the internet so I'll see myself out.

Nah, it doesn't have to be like that. I -enjoy- nitpicking details and stuff. I can separate the nitpicks from actually having fun being entertained. If you don't want to nitpick - don't. Feel free to still talk about what you liked and had fun watching or would like to see, or whatever. Don't feel like because I'm nitpicking stuff I don't like that you have to engage with that part of the conversation just to be involved. You definitely don't. Talk about what makes you happy and leave the rest.

A plausible rumor I read is that this will be a short term run to have a proper send off, and that he wanted to promote the Ron Killings name and character in WWE before he leaves to go the indies...

Agree with all of this. I'm sure fan outrage amplified what other wrestlers were saying already and maybe made it more 'real' to the higher ups. Like.. 'okay this isn't just an 'insider' thing - even the fans are pissed off so maybe our people are right' kind of a situation.
And definitely agree that going with Ron again makes a lot of sense if he wants to be able to make any money off his legacy once he's in the indies or doing podcasts or whatever. I do wonder how much life is in the old dog once his latest renewal is up. Obviously it depends on how long his current contract is for, but even if it's like another 3 years that's getting him real close to 60 before he's out on the indies again.

Either way, I'm pretty excited to see what they do here and I hope WWE 'puts some respect on his name.'

a more definitive end to the Bloodline.

Yup. The Bloodline was one of the best stories in wrestling in my lifetime and they really whiffed the ending by involving Rocky and all this other stuff. Especially given the rumour that Roman is mostly done with wrestling now, and Rocky being a total diva babypants about actually wrestling anyone, it seems like a waste to end it the way they did. A shame, really. Like ending the Ministry storyline with Vince McMahon being the Devil, or whatever. Like a really loud fart noise coming out of a deflating balloon.

I think it will happen! He can't retire a heel. If they do have a plan, it will be for him to turn on the Rock being evil to Cody - which leaves to door a bit ajar for him being involved again (maybe not in ring but like the Undertaker popping up here and there to even things up).

Could be could be. I do think, from the 'legacy' standpoint, whatever happens really needs to be something big. Now, to be fair, I'd also just love it if it didn't involve Rocky. Call it my personal bias, but I just hate that his fingers are in basically everything WWE now and his current position in TKO means there's a taint to him involving himself in these major moments for other guys. A lot like all of HHH's post-marraige title reigns just feeling a little bit sideways, a little less special than they should have been.
That being said - I'm not and never was a Cena fan. In fact, I genuinely thought wrestling would be better without him for every year he was ever involved in the company. BUT, my personal opinions aside, he's one of wrestlings biggest ever stars and that, if not him personally, deserves a great send off and I'd like to see that done well with a really powerful face turn. I just want it to be something we remember CENA doing, not something we remember as a 'Rock thing.' If that makes sense.

So Jey is back to being without the belt. I think that reign was the right length, and I think WWE likes to but the belt on fan favorites for a few months so that they can call them "Former World Champion" or whatever.

They do like that, it seems. At the same time, eventually it does feel less important. Like calling someone a former 24/7 champion. Like.. who wasn't? Especially when the upper card doesn't change a lot, so it's like 'every single person in the upper card is a former world champion.'
Hopefully they find a good spot for Jey that makes sense. The crowd loves to cheer with him, and he seems personable. I just don't think he's a great wrestler or a great talker, and those limitations mean finding a good spot where he can get those big crowd reactions without shining spotlights on his weaknesses, which I think is exactly what his title reign was doing to him.

I think it is a really interesting question as to who retire Cena - I think he is too big a name to get a youngster to put over, so I could see it be someone like Seth (if Cena is a face at that point) or Cody (to put Cody up on that level as the top face of the generation - which neither Reigns nor Rollins will ever be).

Yeah, I'm genuinely puzzled. Sometimes I sit and wonder if even WWE is absolutely sure of the direction they want to go in yet. Usually I can get a good read on things, and my wife jokes that I can ruin storylines for her months in advance because I can already see where they want to go with something and have a decent track record of calling it correctly. I just... really don't know what they're going to do with Cena. Which, at least, makes it interesting.

Agreed that Seth probably isn't the guy. Seth reminds me a lot, spiritually, of Mr. Perfect or Randy Savage. Awesome wrestler. Workhorse. Just isn't going to be given the 'face of the company' position no matter what, though. Reigns, I'm betting, has too short of a shelf life left for WWE to consider him as the next Cena. And as good as he can be, he isn't the talker I think WWE wants out of THE big name of the company. I just don't know who that person would be right now.

You're also not wrong that Cena is probably just too big and too important for some young gun from NXT to retire him. Too much risk that it won't work out and anyone that new isn't proven enough for WWE to know if they even should invest in them like that. My wishlisting is to say --- give it to Ethan Page. That would be a crazy turn of events. He's over. People love him. He's got lots of time in the business and a proven track record but is still young enough to be around for a long time, and can legitimately be a really effective bad guy or a pretty loveable good guy.
Aleister Black would be another crazy interesting choice if they decide they finally want to pull the trigger and make him the next Undertaker, as a lot of people thought they would when he originally got the NXT call-up.

The RR telegraphs too much I think and it is too long to get to the match.

Agree about RR only because the RR and Wrestlemania are too far apart in the modern world of episodic television. I don't think I can ever get behind 'get a title shot against anyone' because I really do think that choosing anyone but the main champ *or one of the two main champs, I guess* feels like it devalues those titles. We're supposed to view the two main titles as the most important things in -all of wrestling-. I can't get behind someone saying 'yeah, but I really dislike the North American Pancake Eating Champion, so I'm going after THAT belt instead.' It feels very off and counterintuitive.

What if they did something like a tournament system -- like do a traditional Survivor Series in November and a Royal Rumble in January. Then have the winners face off against each other in March to decide who will get the WM title shot in April? Something like that would work better for me.

I feel part of what "diminishes" those belts is the "who do we randomly make the challenger" next aspect, compared to the main titles where they do a good job of having at least a few folks who could be up next and credible.

That's definitely part of it. But there's always going to be a sense that those belts are 'lesser' prizes. I've been rewatching all the old PPVs and RAWs going back to '93, since it's all up on Netflix. I'm currently up to RAWs from '97. At no point did I -ever- feel like the Intercontinental title was even close to being on the level of the World title. Even when Razor was champ and then lost it and then spent a lot of energy chasing it again. It certainly seemed -important-. But there's kind of an underlying feeling there that Razor is only chasing that belt because he isn't in the main title picture. Ya' know?

AEW seems lost, they do Swerve vs Ospreay for 30 minutes on free TV as part of a 4 hr show - that's a PPV caliber match with that stipulation. I think Tony is convinced he wants Darby as champ so the Moxley/Deathriders slog along until that happens. They still allow stupid spots for the circumstances - Fletcher vs Cole on the apron, botch or not, safe or not, seemed pointless for a regular show. Don't get it.

Agreed. There's a few things I enjoy in AEW still (love Julia Hart -- even though Black leaving the company utterly ruined all the momentum she had built up, as well as the now Hounds of Hell). But goddamn I'm sick of the pointless dangerous spots for random TV matches no one is going to remember. And Darby as champ is basically asking me to not watch AEW. Not to mention, as you said, Khan seems obsessed with forcing us to endure the Deathriders storyline until Darby is good to hold the belt, and doesn't seem concerned that most people seem to agree that the Deathriders storyline sucks and has sucked for a long time.

In fact, Moxley as champ is what tuned me out of AEW and if Darby wins it from him I'm just not going to tune back in at all. Just lots of bizarrely poor decisions going on over there.

 

[Damien]

Sorry, fac, I chopped out some text from the messages I was responding to because the forum was yelling at me about how many characters were in the post, and I figured you'd know what I was referring to even if your full quote wasn't there.

 

[Damien]

So Jade is Queen of the Ring. I don't agree with that decision at all (because I fucking hate the pro-wrestlingism of hardcore pushing people that fucking suck horribly at actual wrestling) but I do -understand- the decision. On the men's side - I don't understand at all. I don't even understand the final 2. It doesn't seem like King of the Ring should be a vehicle for dumping some extra laurels on the biggest stars in the company. What a waste. Neither guy benefits from this and neither guy needed it.

Cena won. Predictably. CM Punk proved (in like... real life) that he actually is just a self-out capitalist piece of shit. Which is hilarious since it makes Cena's promo true and makes it really hard to dislike Cena even if you're actually someone that generally dislikes Cena. Dude is spitting truth and I'm supposed to be mad about it because I'm a Punk fan? Naw.

 

[fac]

I don't have the issue with the Saudi shows many do, mainly because I sincerely believe that the best way for change in insular countries to occur is exposure to the broader world, so even if it is "just wrestling" maybe some attitudes do get adjusted (ahem). Isolating a group of people from the outside world makes change unlikely anywhere. I can live with wrestlers putting on a show there, the same way other companies sell their music, film, tv and other entertainment products there. Having said that, Punk digs his own holes by being too much on his high horse at times about others and I thought going after The Miz when the whole company pretty much goes if asked was unprofessional.

Cargill doesn't do much for me either, she can do the power spots but her matches have no flow to them. I did think the Rhea v Raquel match was pretty solid.

I'm assuming that the final Cena storyline will be him reverting to a face role (he teases it most matches to be noble) and Cody will sign on with the Rock in a more heelish role (which he is starting to tease already, both being a bit more vicious in the ring, and acting a bit too much like he deserves it more than others in an arrogant way). But even if they don't do that, Cody has to get his win back against Cena. I really dislike overbooked finishes, so that Cena v Punk match lost me part way through. Only good part was Cena shoulder blocking Little Naitch into next week.

 

[fac]

I feel like WWE really fumbled the New Day after their great segment turning on Big E. I felt like they should have been pushed more in their oblivious selfishness and annoyance with everyone and the characters could have been truly despised heels like Doom was there for a while. Disappointed they lost the gold, missed opportunity to move them to Smackdown where the tag division has been hot.

 

[Damien]

Cargill doesn't do much for me either, she can do the power spots but her matches have no flow to them. I did think the Rhea v Raquel match was pretty solid.

Cargill is a female Goldberg. She looks impressive and can move the other girls around with the expected power - but she's a bad, clumsy wrestler. I agree with some of the wrestling commentator types out there that have said she's fine if she's used like a Goldberg - like AEW mostly used her. If you -want- to have someone like her (I really don't know why you would, personally), then you need to have her squashing most people. When she's not, you go the Diesel v. Shawn Michaels route and let the more athletic wrestler bump around the bigger wrestler. Don't put her out there and ask her to do the same moves as Rhea or Asuka. She can't.

Rhea hasn't had many bad matches in her main roster career. That lady can go.

I don't have the issue with the Saudi shows many do, mainly because I sincerely believe that the best way for change in insular countries to occur is exposure to the broader world, so even if it is "just wrestling" maybe some attitudes do get adjusted (ahem). Isolating a group of people from the outside world makes change unlikely anywhere. I can live with wrestlers putting on a show there, the same way other companies sell their music, film, tv and other entertainment products there. Having said that, Punk digs his own holes by being too much on his high horse at times about others and I thought going after The Miz when the whole company pretty much goes if asked was unprofessional.

The Saudi shows are really complicated. Changing hearts and minds is a great goal - but the reality is that the shows are being brought in and paid for by the 'royals' there, who are straight-up murderers that violently oppress their own people and have such horrific views that some wrestlers really shouldn't even be going there for fear of being killed outright. I don't think you're changing any hearts and minds on that. The kind of people that don't agree with the regime in charge already don't agree. The kind that do are the ones watching a WWE show and then writing an op-ed about how women who drive cars should be burned alive.
And it's not like the wrestlers are allowed to do or say anything that -really- challenges the narrative of that government.
AND the shows are serving to sanitize Saudi Arabia's public image so more people will bring more money and entertainment to them without them having to actually make their country more appealing by not having being gay be punishable by death, for example.

An argument has been made that if everyone refused to deal with SA because of their incredibly violent oppressive laws, they may be forced to relent on some of them or risk a slow decline into poverty that could cause mass unrest and even an overthrow of the current regime. By treating them like we would the UK or France, we normalize their various horrors on the world stage and allow them to not even have to consider changing.

So I'd say, and this is just my opinion, going there is still a huge net negative, even if there are positives to doing it. But that's all a bunch of fluff because WWE doesn't care what I think. To the original point; CM Punk understood all this. Him going back on it because of a paycheck is pretty gross specifically because he was a guy that called it out. Like you said, it's a hole of his own making and he deserves to be in it.

I feel like WWE really fumbled the New Day after their great segment turning on Big E. I felt like they should have been pushed more in their oblivious selfishness and annoyance with everyone and the characters could have been truly despised heels like Doom was there for a while. Disappointed they lost the gold, missed opportunity to move them to Smackdown where the tag division has been hot.

Fully agreed. If often feels like WWE isn't employing enough (or talented enough) writers to be able to keep track of multiple stories at a time. So only the biggest ones carry on (sometimes too long) and a lot of stuff just gets pushed aside. It's like they can only juggle about 3 men's stories and 1 woman's story at a time.

 

[fac]

Not to debate it, but I don't think WWE not going would change anything either. If I thought the only thing stopping massive societal change there was because the WWE shows up for a weekend once a year to soothe the masses, I'd hope they wouldn't go. If the rest of the entertainment and retail industry all worked together, might have an impact - although not sure it would - people tend to change more based on seeing the options, hearing different views and seeing people they thought were flawed humanized, more than being told they are wrong/backwater/out of touch or out of fear of punishment. And while it may be minor, maybe the kids and young adults following the WWE start to learn more about the "superstars" and what they do and believe and start to be more open to others.

I had the chance to travel to some of the middle east (Oman, Jordan, Egypt, UAE) and while each was different, it seemed clear to me that, like any country viewed from afar, there is less homogeneity of thought, more complexity and nuance in beliefs and behaviors, than we get from media reports of the worst events. Not disagreeing with you about the problems that they have in SA, but ultimately until the people there want change, it won't happen from the outside - and I'm not sure that what we might want to see happen is what the people there are ready for yet.

 

[Damien]

If I thought the only thing stopping massive societal change there was because the WWE shows up for a weekend once a year to soothe the masses, I'd hope they wouldn't go.

Isn't that akin to saying that it's only worth asking a company not to pollute our air if pollution can be solved by stopping that ONE company from doing it?


In a surprise to .. me... I was surprised... I REALLY enjoyed Evolution on Sunday. Not surprised because 'girls are dumb,' obviously. But the show had very little build, terrible storylines, a major injury causing last minute re-writes, and the whole thing was rushed out just to counter-program AEW bcause WWE is full of whiny man-babies with constant snuffling noses and tears in their eyes if other wrestling promotions try to exist.

But yeah, I don't think there was a bad match on the show. Can't say that for anything else WWE put out over the weekend.

Haven't finished AEW All-In yet. That's a fucking long ass show and I don't ever have 6 hours of sitting time all at once like... ever.