Continuing my MCU rewatch

[Fletch]

Thor, the Dark World (Pt 1)

I may be alone in the universe, but I love Dark World. It's possibly my favorite Thor movie, which is likely a combination of appreciation for it and a sort of low bar as far as Thor movies go. Even after this rewatch it holds up for me. I watched it with a pretty critical eye this time, though, so my notes may seem to be at odds with how much I say I like it.

And it turns out I had so much to say, this forum wouldn't let me do it all in one post. So you get it in 2 parts.

1. Let's be honest, this is the exact same opening as Thor 1. In the ancient past, the residents of one of the realms makes war on Asgardians, and Thor's ancestor has to beat them into submission. Another lazy flashback that's especially egregious because we already have the battle on Vanaheim if we need to start off with an action scene. Come to think of it, it would also make the aether more of an enigma when Jane finds it, which I think would be fun.
   
   
2. Still, we get laser elves and space Vikings. If that's all this movie gave us, it would be worth the price. It's such a distinctive setting that really gives the Thor movies their own identity going forward. I loved the concept in He-Man and Krull, and it still holds up.
   
   
3. Thor has never looked better and never will again. I don't know what this movie's braiding budget was, but they finally figured out Thor's hair, and if the metal circles on his tunic were silver, he'd be absolutely perfect. Hemsworth and Hiddleston still have a masterful ability to flow naturally from neo-Shakespeare to "real world" dialog. You still feel the regalness of them, but with a natural chemistry. Anthony Hopkins, I'm sorry to say, is somehow the worst actor in this movie, and that's including Eccleston. All his scenes felt so flat and rushed, like he didn't want to be there and was just trying to wrap early. At first I thought "oh man, I guess this movie is bad" but then there'd be a great scene between Thor and Jane or Loki and Frigga and I'd realize it was Hopkins all along.
   
   
4. Jane, unfortunately, is little more than a damsel in distress who occasionally remembered to collapse under the effects of the aether in her body. Her non-aether scenes were, of course, really good. I loved the "real world" human she brought to a lot of it, like the "you told your dad about me?" Darcy, if possible, I like even more here. She's taking a gamble by being the comic relief character, but she had to run things on Earth for a good chunk of the movie, and was up to it. Stellan Skarsgard deserved better, though. He's Stellan Mother-Fucking Skarsgard! He shouldn't be a madman running naked around Stonehenge!?! Storywise, I get that they're showing the impact of having Loki in your mind, but it feels too extreme. I suspect Hawkeye never went through anything like this. By all means, show the PTSD of what happened, I just think Skarsgard AND Sellvig deserved to be treated with some more respect.
   
   
5. Chris Eccleston gets an entry all his own, because I really want to talk about Malekith. I want to like Eccleston, but he's always so vocal about how much he hates being in roles (like this or Dr. Who) that I wonder why he's even an actor. Still, I thought his performance as Malekith was fine, if very one-dimensional (ironic) and he suffered deeply from not having a conceptualizable plan. Like, he was a dark elf who, eons ago, tried to somehow plunge the universe into darkness. Which is an *idea* sure, but they never convinced me there was a way to do it. They just claimed "aether" and hoped we wouldn't ask questions. I guess the advantage there is that they also don't have to put much effort into explaining how the final battle works. I'm not beholden to Malekith's portrayal in the comics and, in fact, prefer him as the somber figure since it matches his roll as a "dark elf" and makes him different from Loki.
   
   
6. Jane's pining for Thor was handled way better than Thor's pining for Jane. Thor just moping around during a celebration compared to that really awkward lunch date with Chris O'Dowd. Darcy's "remember that science stuff you never look at any more?" hit so hard. I think Thor's scenes also suffer from never convincing me why Thor was in love with Jane. This is a lingering problem with the first movie, but what we really needed here was some poetry from Thor about how her fleeting life makes her burn brighter in his eyes, or how her quest for truth elevates her above other mortals, or how she's the one who inspired him to change his ways to reclaim his hammer. Something! I'm not a romantic. I'm not just willing to take your word for it that you love her. Tell me why. I honestly wouldn't have minded something similar from Jane. Although it's a little easier to understand why a mortal would become infatuated with a god, I would've welcomed something a bit more personal that clarified that it was deeper than just infatuation.

 

[Fletch]

Thor, the Dark World (Pt 2)

1. (dang, the numbering started over again for the second post) At first I called bullshit on the coincidence of Jane just happening to be the one to find the aether, but it does sort of line up. She's specifically researching interdimensional bridges. That's how she met Thor and here it's how she found the Aether. I'm not 100% sure where we were supposed to think the aether was, though. Since the portal from Svartalfheim lead right back to the abandoned factory, I'm assuming that's where it was. So it makes it seem a little shortsighted if Bor told his soldiers to hide it away in a big effing cave ON the same planet as the guys they were trying to keep it from.
   
   
2. Oh, I forgot to mention Heimdall in my cast breakdown. Idris Elba is so good here too. Like Hemsworth and Hiddleston, he's able to simultaneously show gravitas and charm. He's able to converse with Thor as an equal and a friend, without ever losing his air of divinity or humanity. I don't think I ever fully appreciated his performance here, but it turns out he's way more involved in the story than I'd remembered.
   
   
3. I can't decide if Frigga projected herself into Loki's cell in defiance of Odin's orders, or if Loki conjured up an illusion of his mother. Either way, it's really great character work for Loki. In a movie where Thor and Loki are to work together, it was a smart plan to have them unite over their shared mother. I don't think it was intentional, but Odin's focus on training the next king was purely divisive. Honestly, Frigga had a really great death. She fucked up Malekith, demonstrated the warrior skills of Thor AND the trickery of Loki, and was killed specifically because Malekith knew she was a strong woman who would never tell where Jane was. Even after her death, her legacy was to unite her sons in a way they maybe hadn't for years.
   
   
4. It's weird that they wrote Hogun out of the story so early. At first I thought it neat that we get to see his home is Vanaheim, but then there's this whole Warriors Three-centric caper in the middle of the movie and he doesn't get to be in it. Like, he couldn't even have taken over flying the elf ship to lure the longship fighters away after Thor and co. snuck off? Come to think of it, how come Fandral didn't tell Loki that if he betrays Thor he'll kill him? They'd started such a fun routine.
   
   
5. Maaaan, I 100% fell for Loki's ruse on Svartalfheim. Both of them, really. I'd gasped when I thought he'd betrayed Thor and cut his hand off and I gasped when I thought he'd really truly died to Kurse. I'd even missed the obvious glow that gave away he'd taken the form of the guard before returning to Asgard. I was completely taken aback by the reveal that the Odin in the final scene with Thor was actually Loki. I should've seen it, though, because that was an amazing scene from the up-to-now awful Anthony Hopkins. I should've known it was Tom Hiddleston in disguise.
   
   
6. Thor really failed at everything on Svartalfheim, didn't he. Not only did he not keep Malekith from getting the aether, but he's not even the one who killed Kurse. Loser.
   
   
7. The multiple portals at the end made for a really fun playground for the final fight to take place in. As a whole, the Convergence was well used as a plot device and as a tangible tool throughout the movie. Selvig's magic teleport spikes, though, were a little inconsistent, and I think a little more explanation about what they were actually doing with them would've kept them consistent and helped sell their roll in the finale.
   

The second movie of a trilogy tends, in my eyes, to be that real sweet spot in a character's life where we've already done the legwork to get them established, but don't have to stretch our understanding of the character just to do something "new" for the third movie. I think that's why this stands out so much as my favorite Thor. He's at his Thor-iest, Loki's at his Loki-iest, and so on. Adding in the trappings of space gods was a genius idea.

Obviously, the albatross here is that Malekith has an intangible plan an almost no personality. Maybe highlight the damage to a mortal's body that uses the aether. Not only do we get some more concrete wear on Jane as she's consumed by it, but Malekith becomes a martyr, willing to sacrifice his own body to use the aether to create a universe that his peoples can expand into for conquest. Or freedom from the world they've been trapped on, depending on how sympathetic you want to make them.

Maybe the planar conjunction isn't just a shortcut to being able to do everywhere all at once, but is the only time the aether, the coalesced form of reality, comes into existence. It's not something that always is, that was secretly hiding on Malekith's home planet, but something he actually has to wait to appear so he can use it to black out suns and open the rest of the Nine Realms to them. And I guess Jane uses her knowledge of quantum field generators (what she recognized the Asgardian medical bed scanner as) to pull the aether out of Malekith into a container of some sort, which is how it winds up with the Collector and eventually Thanos.

I don't know, just off the top of my head.

I don't really intend these commentaries to be "how I would've done it" fanfic exercises. But Dark World was so close to being a great movie, it just seems like a little more brainstorming to shore up the saggy bits would've worked wonders.

 

[Ru1977]

I may be alone in the universe, but I love Dark World

I don't know if I love it, but I really enjoy it.

Come to think of it, it would also make the aether more of an enigma when Jane finds it, which I think would be fun

When my son was little and getting into Marvel, I edited some of the movies so he could watch them. Partly violence but way more about shortening them for younger kids. With Dark World, the only thing I remember really changing was cutting out the prologue then chopping it into the part when Jane comes to Asgard and Odin essentially tells her the prologue again.

He-Man

Man, I think it was Dark World when I realize Thor could have been Marvel's He-Man as far as a muscly hero, out to do good, fighting neat and exotic monsters alongside his fun friends, riding in magic vehicles, etc. Could have sold a lot of lunchboxes.

I thought his performance as Malekith was fine, if very one-dimensional (ironic) and he suffered deeply from not having a conceptualizable plan

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I can't decide if Frigga projected herself into Loki's cell in defiance of Odin's orders, or if Loki conjured up an illusion of his mother.

I feel Loki conjured her, but that may be my pessimism.

Even after her death, her legacy was to unite her sons in a way they maybe hadn't for years.

Yes, really beautiful. And her scene in Endgame is one of my favorites too. Also, Loki gets to witness it in his show.

It's weird that they wrote Hogun out of the story so early

Agreed. They always seems to not know what to do with those guys. Lets just move away from them as quickly as we can. In the third one, you know, lets just kill them off completely and solve this problem forever.

Come to think of it, how come Fandral didn't tell Loki that if he betrays Thor he'll kill him? They'd started such a fun routine

Right, in a Fandral kind of way.

The multiple portals at the end made for a really fun playground for the final fight to take place in

Definitely. it was a lot of fun throughout. And of course Darcy's callback to mewmew.

The second movie of a trilogy tends, in my eyes, to be that real sweet spot in a character's life where we've already done the legwork to get them established, but don't have to stretch our understanding of the character just to do something "new" for the third movie.

Also, they don't have to have a huge ending. The final part of the trilogy carries a heavy load, and a lot of times will crumble. It's like how a lot of comedies in the 80s and 90s suck in the final act because they focus more on ending the story than maintaining the funny. So, the middle of the story is always the meat. You've gotten to know them, can enjoy the journey, and doesn't have to have a big, ultimate ending.

He's at his Thor-iest, Loki's at his Loki-iest, and so on.

Yes, that is definitely my favorite aspect of Dark World. Any Loki fan should enjoy this movie.

 

[Damien]

. I'm not beholden to Malekith's portrayal in the comics and, in fact, prefer him as the somber figure since it matches his roll as a "dark elf" and makes him different from Loki.

I'm gonna pick on this point a little bit because I largely agree with your assessment of the film. Although I'll also point out that I don't like it very much and it's the weakest (for me) of the original Thor trilogy. In fact, I think I liked it a lot more originally than I did on re-watches later. To be fair, I could never quite put my finger on why, since this is kind of my preferred version of Thor (more serious, more confident -- this is probably the most like Coipel/Return Thor from the comics that we ever get in the films).

Anyway, about Malekith - I think this version of Malekith was actually almost indistinguishable from Loki, to the point where I wondered if a lot of the writing for this character was originally written to BE Loki and some of the Big Plan stuff was tacked on later when they decided the villain would be Malekith instead.

To me, what defines Loki is his desire to rule, to be respected, to be seen as powerful and even 'worthy.' It's handled fairly well in the films, I feel. Loki is a would-be King to his core. He's a ruler looking for people to rule. Without really good acting, that is an incredibly bland characterization. Loki makes it work through dialogue and background.

Malekith isn't this. Because Malekith's defining characteristic should be that he's pretty much fucking insane. Like 50% Loki, 50% Joker. He was missing that entirely here. He didn't feel, to me, to be unstable. He didn't feel vindictive and vicious -- or rather, capricious in his violence. Dark World Malekith felt too much like a bog-standard villain -- Loki without the baggage and gravitas. Temu Emo Loki trying to be serious and grim all the time. As a long-time Thor fan, I wanted a Malekith that was just out of his goddamn mind - as unreliable to his allies as he was unpredictable to his enemies. I wanted him to be FEY in every sense.

And maybe that's putting my finger on the big problem I have with Dark World; at the end, I just could never get over how disappointed I was in the portrayal of Malekith. At this point I think I was already kind of 'over' the idea of Marvel treating most comic villains as monsters-of-the-week to be vanquished and never seen again - I already knew that was the plan here as well and, at least, I wanted a really powerful portrayal of this villain. And I just didn't get it.

 

[Fletch]

Odin essentially tells her the prologue again.

That's usually why I hate flashback intros. There's almost always a scene later where it's explained again to the main character. I personally think it plays way better when we learn about it at the same time as the hero.

Because Malekith's defining characteristic should be that he's pretty much fucking insane. Like 50% Loki, 50% Joker.

I admit, I've never read a comic with Malekith in it, I was just presponding to a frequent opinion I've seen about the portrayal here. So yeah, if Eccleston played him as a cackling lunatic, that would also be a choice. An absolute nihilist who just wants to use the aether to unmake the universe.

Free from any attachment to the comics, I stll think the somber, deep-voiced, anti-elf was the right call, it's just that that's where they ended the call.

 

[Damien]

I admit, I've never read a comic with Malekith in it, I was just presponding to a frequent opinion I've seen about the portrayal here. So yeah, if Eccleston played him as a cackling lunatic, that would also be a choice. An absolute nihilist who just wants to use the aether to unmake the universe.

Free from any attachment to the comics, I stll think the somber, deep-voiced, anti-elf was the right call, it's just that that's where they ended the call.

Oh yeah. I don't think they did a bad job writing the character, and I don't think Eccleston did a bad job portraying what they gave him. It's just not the version of the character I wanted to see. As a big fan of fey in folklore, I would love to see someone really portray that unhinged capriciousness of a fey (already unpredictable) that's basically gone mad. There were so many great opportunities to do something interesting that we hadn't seen and likely wouldn't have much opportunity to see again.

Instead we got like.. Elf-Ultron or whatever.

 

[fac]

I think the Dark World was also hampered a bit by everyone knowing at that point that the MCU was the "MCU". Both this and IM 3 I think were hurt by the scale of the Avengers, and the audience being told to look at each film as a chapter in a larger saga (Phase 1! Phase 2!) - to me they were the first films where going into the theater the main story of the film itself was potentially overshadowed by people looking for progress/connections towards the next Avengers film, and the Infinity Gauntlet that we kind of knew was coming.

 

[Ru1977]

I think the Dark World was also hampered a bit by everyone knowing at that point that the MCU was the "MCU". Both this and IM 3 I think were hurt by the scale of the Avengers, and the audience being told to look at each film as a chapter in a larger saga (Phase 1! Phase 2!) - to me they were the first films where going into the theater the main story of the film itself was potentially overshadowed by people looking for progress/connections towards the next Avengers film, and the Infinity Gauntlet that we kind of knew was coming.

That's a good point, and it was definitely a tough time really because I remember... I think I was in the theater to watch Winter Solider but I can't remember if the Ultron trailer has just come out or some announcement or something, but even before the lights dimmed I was annoyed at how much I was already looking forward to something else. And of course I got into Winter Soldier and it was amazing and all that, but I already knew I had to chill myself out on looking ahead so hard.

 

[PanchaMaestro]

I don't think Thor 2 is as bad as people say. At least its a Thor movie. Thor 1 spends so much time rolling around in the mud with SHIELD agents. You can see they are reluctance to go full goofy comic book. Order of the the day was make it more "real". The main issue I still think isn't that Malekith has the wrong personality its that he has no personality. He isn't Loki. Loki is a narcissist. Malekith is sociopathic nihilist. He's like as others have said; a space fairy Joker. The tension between him and Loki could have been fun. At least it would have been something to do.

 

[Fletch]

the audience being told to look at each film as a chapter in a larger saga

I don't recall that in my initial viewing, but that was a while ago. I feel like my joy of seeing Loki as Captain America came more from a "look what they can do" and not a "look what they had to do" if that makes sense. I personally didn't feel bogged down by Whatsnext Phaseism until Thor's side quest in Age of Ultron. Until then, they still felt like unconnected movies in the same playground, with all the Phase building happening in the end credit scenes.

At least it would have been something to do.

You've found the most universal opinion of Dark World. No matter where you stand on the movie, it's this.

 

[Fletch]

Captain America: Winter Soldier

One of my top 5 MCU movies. Probably even top 3 depending on my mood. They did a really smart thing here and make CA2 a political thriller. It's the next logical leap from a war movie, and really plays to Steve's character as a soldier in a game of spies. It makes its own drama.

1. I didn't know who Anthony Mackie was before this movie, but he's a really great Sam Wilson. Immediate, scene 1 chemistry with Rogers. Making him a former airman who now works at the VA is a subtle change, but basically keeps to his comic social worker roots and gives him an interesting perspective on career soldier Steve. As the Falcon, he was way cooler than I expected him to be. They really made his flying scenes exciting, and being exposed with wings made it all more vulnerable and visceral than Iron Man's flying scenes.
   
   
2. On Steve's Things I Missed list, he has Star Wars / Trek, with only Star Wars crossed off. Heh.
   
   
3. Steve's SHIELD agent suit is straight from the comics and looks great. He does go back to his WWII costume at the end, but I guess I can allow it as maybe trying to reach out to Bucky who last knew him dressed like that. I know it's a weird thing to pick on, but I don't like Steve's hair going forward. I thought the old-fashioned fade and part from Avengers sold his roots from the 40s and highlighted his man-out-of-time nature.
   
   
4. This time out, I started noticing an intermittent camera trick they used during the insertion into the Lumerian Star. The camera liked to hide behind stuff and watch the fights, like it was part of the secret mission too and taking cover. It wasn't used in every shot, but was still neat and I think added to the secretive feel of the mission. I like it and am putting it in my toolbelt in case I ever make a movie. Some later action scenes, like the bridge fight with Winter Soldier, went a little too handheld/shaky cam, but I think it's used to great effect here.
   
   
5. I forgot how good this movie was for Black Widow. You have to pay attention sometimes, but she really comes through. When Steve grabs her to escape the grenade, she's the one who shoots out the window so they can leap through. When Winter Soldier is shooting at them through the car roof, she saves both Steve and Sam from getting shot. (Footnote: there's a lot of SHIELD women saving people by kicking them out of the way. Is that part of their training?) Even beyond that, she's a critical element to the story. Her spy nature balances out Steve's soldierness. It's basically a buddy cop movie. Finally, like with the Hulk in the Avengers, she's such a competent character, that when she shows fear of someone, in this case the Winter Soldier, it really lands. She deserved a solo movie long before she finally got one.
   
   
6. Does anybody else think it's weird that SHIELD just has an office building in downtown DC?
   
   
7. They really laid the tracks for how isolated Steve is in the modern day. At first it was quippy ("all my barbershop quartet is dead") but then we get the walkthrough of the Smithsonian exhibit before meeting Peggy Carter who may not even remember him minute-to-minute. The only other people in his life are SHIELD, and his morals don't fully align with theirs. I have to be honest, though, after laying all that track, they never get us to the station. I never really felt his loneliness because I don't think there's a single scene in this movie where he's alone.
   
   
8. Robert Redford as Alexander Pierce was a wonderful choice. I don't think he's ever played a villain before, and the character of Pierce wasn't a villain in the comics (that I know of). I had no reason to think he wasn't on the up-and-up, and actually thought Winter Soldier was there to kill him when he was at his kitchen table. One of the most interesting twists in the movie is that everything Pierce told Rogers about Fury was true. I assumed it was a cover-up, but Fury really *did* hire Batroc to hijack a SHIELD spy ship. Wheels within wheels.
   
   
9. The one thing that keeps this movie from being perfect? They absolutely should've died in that missile strike at the Camp Lehigh bunker. That elevator was shown to go at least four stories down. Way more than the 8' crater they dug themselves out of.
   
   
10. The "last" Exo-7 Falcon suit. Cute. I kind of dig that they describe the heavy security around it and then just shrug and don't even bother showing them breaking in to get it.
    
    
11. The reveal of Senator Stern as a Hydra agent was mindblowing.
    
    
12. I've never read a comic with Winter Soldier in it, but he translates really well to screen. He has a really intimidating look and Sebastian Stan really sells it. Even the part where he voluntarily opens his mouth to get the mouth guard for his "conditioning" is heartbreaking. A lot of comic movies try for a big villain reveal, but they rarely land because we already know who the villain is (*cough* Mysterio *cough*), but here it works because, even though we already know that Bucky is the Winter Soldier, Steve doesn't and we're really invested in seeing what happens when he finds out.
    
    
13. I think they "cut it too close" a little too much for that last circuit replacement. Like, it's all coming down to this, and we get a countdown to launch. Then a countdown to getting high enough to triangulate targets. Then a countdown to fire. That last bit was just a line too far. That gunner counted the slowest down from three while we filled the time with Steve getting shot a few times and struggling to climb the scaffolding. Just have Steve climb the scaffolding before taking a single bullet from WS. Then we don't have to pad out the countdown and Steve can just find the strength to complete the mission before the commander can finish saying "fire all guns."

A near perfect movie. I can't say enough good things about it. The action scenes were top notch, the drama felt real, and the twists kept surprising me. Did I say top 3 MCU movies? Maybe top 3 any movies. The Russo brothers really earned their reputations here. They have a real ability to give everybody moments that are true to character which is key to a buddy cop movie like this.

 

[Ru1977]

I actually had an idea for Steve to have an alone scene. I wanted a credit scene of him riding his motorcycle on the open road, probably a few shots over 20-30 seconds, just Steve and the bike alone with his thoughts. The show him going home to New York, riding through Brooklyn, then crossing the bridge and the camera tilts up to show the rebuilt Avengers tower. Then cut to him on the elevator, opens up to Tony's penthouse with the other five members. He shares a knowing nod with Widow, then Tony says something akin to "alright, now we can get started."

The idea being, they do belong together and have all realized it during their solo adventures.

 

[Fletch]

@Ru1977, I don't hate the current mid-credit scene. It does lead into Age of Ultron. You know what would've been a better lead in? Hawkeye or somebody going through the released SHIELD/Hydra files and saying they've got a lead on where they took the scepter. It's still directly tied to the conclusion of Winter Soldier, but bridges the gap that comes from starting Age of Ultron in media res.

 

[Damien]

I know it's a weird thing to pick on, but I don't like Steve's hair going forward. I thought the old-fashioned fade and part from Avengers sold his roots from the 40s and highlighted his man-out-of-time nature.

But doesn't his new hairstyle embrace his -current-, as a guy trying to find his way and integrate into a whole new world? He's got his list of 'modern stuff I gotta do/see' after all. And Steve seems like the kind of guy that would go to a barber and say 'just give me a regular' - whatever that means for the time he's in.

I think they "cut it too close" a little too much for that last circuit replacement.

I'll go you better -- any 'countdown' scene in any movie ever is fucking trash. There isn't a single film-maker in history, that I can think of, that's used it correctly despite it being a whole trope.

A near perfect movie.

Yup. WS is by far not only one of the MCU's best movies, but just generally an excellent film. They did so much right here and really deserve all the credit in the world for cranking out something like this in amongst a bunch of regular ol' superhero movies.

 

[Fletch]

But doesn't his new hairstyle embrace his -current-, as a guy trying to find his way and integrate into a whole new world?

Like I said, it's a weird thing to focus on, but being a fish out of water was kind of Captain America's thing. It was unique to him, and by making him fit in to the modern world, we're losing a distinct character trait. Although I admit that I liked when he shut down Natasha by saying he's familiar with the movie War Games (but also not quite ready for someone with a pierced lip.) It's just a visual cue that I miss.

I'll go you better -- any 'countdown' scene in any movie ever is fucking trash. There isn't a single film-maker in history, that I can think of, that's used it correctly despite it being a whole trope.

Does Galaxy Quest count? I know it was played for a laugh, but a timer that didn't stop counting down when they did the thing was briefly terrifying.